Poor balance examples?

[Jo498]

I think in the reprise of LvB's 8th it is probably meant as a joke that the main theme is basically covered by the tutti. Toscanini ruins that joke by doubling the celli with horns.

Missa solemnis must be a nightmare. I heard it about a year ago in a somewhat too small hall (a provincial theatre) and some parts were a mess sonically; still in others I could hear more than in many recordings but overall had the impression that there is very frequently simply too much "subsidiary" (woodwinds and whatever) stuff going on besides the "main" choral and instrumental lines that it must be extremely hard to get it transparent and balanced (because on the other hand you cannot play everything andante and mezzoforte just for transparency...).

I cannot check the LvB 5th examples right now but a few years ago I compared a few recordings of that piece and amazingly, the 1950s mono recording by Erich Kleiber brought out some woodwind details better than many more recent recordings (often better than Carlos' DG recording but the latter is more powerful). E.g. in the first mvmt. reprise before the famous little oboe solo the oboes and bassoons already have comparably significant parts but in most recordings the oboe solo arises after a mass of sound "out of nowhere".

[(poco) Sforzando]

I think in the reprise of LvB's 8th it is probably meant as a joke . . . .

Don't know why, really. It's not a "comic" movement in the same sense as the second, or the parts in the finale with the bassoons oom-pah-pah'ing in octaves. The theme is given to celli, basses, and bassoons; and in addition to scaling down the rest of the tutti, conductors could help the theme by adding a contrabassoon (as we know was done in the first performances of the 7th). Just a thought.

[Jo498]

Maybe "joke" was putting it wrongly.
But I think that the main theme is "hidden" on purpose in the lower strings. Everything is marked "fff" in that passage so one cannot really damp down the rest of the orchestra and it would be a grosser miscalculation by Beethoven than anything else to expect that the lower strings+bassoons should stick out. One can hear them but not clearly sticking out.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Maybe "joke" was putting it wrongly.
But I think that the main theme is "hidden" on purpose in the lower strings. Everything is marked "fff" in that passage so one cannot really damp down the rest of the orchestra and it would be a grosser miscalculation by Beethoven than anything else to expect that the lower strings+bassoons should stick out. One can hear them but not clearly sticking out.

Then we may have to agree to disagree on this point. I can't think of any examples where Beethoven wrote differing dynamics within a single orchestral texture, but I don't think it unreasonable for everyone else to play ff while the thematic instruments play fff. Why put the theme in the basses in the first place if it was not intended to be heard?

But for a perspective that may support your position, see:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/746230?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

(You can see only a preview of the article, but I know a way to read the whole thing legitimately. Give me a little time, as I'm away from home.)

[relm1]

I suspect problems with balance are far more common than many listeners may realize, and this is one reason why I suggest it may be beneficial for listeners to learn something about reading scores, and to follow along with scores as they listen to recordings. Of course this is not necessary and I expect the suggestion to be resisted, but it can help listeners get a better sense of which recordings are more successful in realizing what composers wrote.

Start for example by finding a score of Beethoven's 5th Symphony and tell me if you can hear the trumpets at bars 182-183 of the first movement and then the woodwinds following. Gunther Schuller, who addresses problems like this in his provocative book "The Compleat Conductor," gets it right in his recording, but I don't hear the trumpets on any other version I know. Similarly, listen to the scherzo to the Brahms 4th, and see if you hear the violin run at the very end of the movement. If you know the score you'll see it, but I doubt you'll usually hear it. Schuller suggests that the passage is under-orchestrated and that it will help articulate the passage if at least half the section bows each note individually, but then you face the problem that the passage is written as slurred. And since Schuller's primary argument is to play scores as written (and to excoriate numerous other conductors for not doing just that), he is faced with an unresolvable problem.

The question has to be: what is the source of the balance problem? Is the composer at fault for writing the passage inaudibly, the conductor at fault for not bringing out the passage (or for that matter using larger orchestral forces than would have been typical when the composer wrote), or the recording engineer for not balancing the microphones properly? And can you always be sure the conductor hasn't rescored a passage to correct problems of balance, whether real or imagined?

That said, here are some other examples that come to mind (a number are from Beethoven, but that may be only because I've studied his scores especially closely):

- The end of the Bruckner 8th combines elements from the first and scherzo movements, but a motif from the adagio is present only in the horns and I can never hear it.
- In the second movement of the Beethoven 5th, a canonic passage for the woodwinds is frequently inaudible against the upper strings. In my comments a few weeks ago about the Honeck recording, I compared his treatment of the passage to Schuller's: https://www.dropbox.com/s/prv9tcu104lp38a/LvB%205-2%20185-191%20Honeck-Schuller.wav?dl=0
- How often do you distinctly hear the trombones, piccolo, and contrabassoon in the finale of that symphony? You will in Schuller: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7y58flncec4fmd7/LvB%205%20Schuller%203-4.wav?dl=0
- A passage only for bassoons in the Credo of the Beethoven Missa Solemnis (starting on p. 200 of the score if you have one) is so hard to hear that Toscanini doubled it with horns, even though Beethoven's instruments could not have played the necessary pitches.
- The return of the main theme (in the lower strings) in the first movement of LvB 8 has to be carefully balanced to as not to be obscured by the upper strings.
- Similarly, the main theme in the first movement of the Brahms G major Quintet is only in the cello, and the four upper strings must take pains not to obscure it.

I'm sure there are many more.

Thanks for the excellent post even complete with audio samples!  Do you know if Schuller used period instruments?  That will impact the intended balance as well since period timpani and strings had a huskier sound.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Thanks for the excellent post even complete with audio samples!  Do you know if Schuller used period instruments?  That will impact the intended balance as well since period timpani and strings had a huskier sound.

I'm sure he uses modern instruments.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I have a problem with the contrabassoon part in the finale of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Most of the time you can't hear it. For example in the beginning of the movement it is totally drowned out by cellos and basses. If you go out of your way to call for a contrabassoon why wouldn't you want it to be heard? One contrabassoon versus 8 cellos and 8 basses, not a chance.

While we are still on Beethoven does anyone else think that Fidelio and the Missa Solemnis have some of the most awkward and strained vocal writing ever? No one really sounds comfortable singing the leads in Fidelio. The choral writing in the Missa Solemnis is taxing but does it always have to sound that way? It makes my skin crawl just listening to it.

I don't know whether Brahms or Schumann necessarily qualify as balance problems but definitely the string writing is laborious and stiff. For example the 1st movement of the Schumann 4th where the violins play the two slurred sixteenth notes followed by 2 staccato sixteenth note figure for almost the entire movement. It is probably better if the entire passage is given to two flutes instead of having the flutes just double the violins. The Brahms 4th also has long moments when the strings just play awkward leaps. But it is a testament to Brahms and Schumann that these continue to be concert hall warhorses despite these shortcomings.

[Parsifal]

I have a problem with the contrabassoon part in the finale of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Most of the time you can't hear it. For example in the beginning of the movement it is totally drowned out by cellos and basses. If you go out of your way to call for a contrabassoon why wouldn't you want it to be heard? One contrabassoon versus 8 cellos and 8 basses, not a chance.

While we are still on Beethoven does anyone else think that Fidelio and the Missa Solemnis have some of the most awkward and strained vocal writing ever? No one really sounds comfortable singing the leads in Fidelio. The choral writing in the Missa Solemnis is taxing but does it always have to sound that way? It makes my skin crawl just listening to it.

I don't know whether Brahms or Schumann necessarily qualify as balance problems but definitely the string writing is laborious and stiff. For example the 1st movement of the Schumann 4th where the violins play the two slurred sixteenth notes followed by 2 staccato sixteenth note figure for almost the entire movement. It is probably better if the entire passage is given to two flutes instead of having the flutes just double the violins. The Brahms 4th also has long moments when the strings just play awkward leaps. But it is a testament to Brahms and Schumann that these continue to be concert hall warhorses despite these shortcomings.

Is this supposed to be a joke?

[Jo498]

Not sure about the 5th finale. I guess that Beethoven would have expected that many performances at his time would have maybe only 6 celli and 3 basses, so another bass instrument would make a difference. It could also be that a bass wind instrument gives it a more "military band" feeling with the piccolo and the trombones added as well.
There is one letter or so where he writes about that finale something like that it should make more noise than 6 tympani but better noise.

As for Fidelio, Missa and 9th symphony it seems almost consensus that being "comfortable" to sing would have been missing the point and Beethoven was well aware of at least some of those difficulties but did it on purpose. (Some hobby choir singers I interacted with in another forum hate/dislike those piece because they are too hard to sing...)

[bigshot]

I'm not sure there is a "proper" balance...

I was transferring 78s of Walter's first act of Die Walkure, and I wanted to check the pitch. So I ripped a bit of the prelude with the storm from Karajan's Ring and lined it up right next to Walter to make sure the speed of the 78s were correct. There was absolutely no way that I could get the pitch the same, because Karajan was emphasizing a part of the music that was like a "Tristan chord" and Walter was going straight down the middle with the main melody. I tried a couple of other Rings, and eventually found a close match in Barenboim. But what it taught me is that a chord can sound quite different depending on the balance.

Orchestral balances can affect the entire arrangement and sound of the orchestra. It's the job of the conductor to find a balance that expresses what he is trying to get out of the music. There's no absolute right and wrong.

[jochanaan]

And (speaking as one who has played in orchestras, although not on the New York, Philadelphia or Vienna level) the balance changes with every group.  Some groups even on the world-class level may have very strong brass but relatively weak woodwinds; others may have powerful strings and mellow brass; others may have great woodwinds and weak percussion; and so on.  I remember hearing a recording, via broadcast, of the Mexico City Philharmonic and being particularly impressed by their trumpeters, then thinking of all the mariachi groups they had to draw from.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'm not sure there is a "proper" balance...

I was transferring 78s of Walter's first act of Die Walkure, and I wanted to check the pitch. So I ripped a bit of the prelude with the storm from Karajan's Ring and lined it up right next to Walter to make sure the speed of the 78s were correct. There was absolutely no way that I could get the pitch the same, because Karajan was emphasizing a part of the music that was like a "Tristan chord" and Walter was going straight down the middle with the main melody. I tried a couple of other Rings, and eventually found a close match in Barenboim. But what it taught me is that a chord can sound quite different depending on the balance.

Orchestral balances can affect the entire arrangement and sound of the orchestra. It's the job of the conductor to find a balance that expresses what he is trying to get out of the music. There's no absolute right and wrong.

There may not be a single correct balance, but I don't think the issue is quite as arbitrary as you seem to suggest. Part of the question of balancing comes from the conductor's understanding of composition and harmony. I don't think most musicians would disagree that the primary melodic line as well as the bass line, since it primarily determines the harmony, must always be heard. Other issues are perhaps more problematic, but in the cases discussed here (Sibelius 7th, Beethoven 8th), we're talking about elements in the texture that don't seem to come through in performance as a rule, and here the question is why the composer wrote these elements at all if they were not going to be heard.

The Beethoven 8th is a perfect example that has been noted since day one. The article I linked to above makes the case that this fff passage is not the true recapitulation, which only starts eight bars later when the higher instruments take the theme in piano. Personally I'm convinced that if the main theme returns in the tonic key, then we have the start of the recapitulation. (The issues, and that article, are discussed at length in Lewis Lockwood's recent book on the symphonies.) But however you care to interpret the form, the article does not answer why the string basses and bassoons should not actually be heard as part of the texture.

[relm1]

And (speaking as one who has played in orchestras, although not on the New York, Philadelphia or Vienna level) the balance changes with every group.  Some groups even on the world-class level may have very strong brass but relatively weak woodwinds; others may have powerful strings and mellow brass; others may have great woodwinds and weak percussion; and so on.  I remember hearing a recording, via broadcast, of the Mexico City Philharmonic and being particularly impressed by their trumpeters, then thinking of all the mariachi groups they had to draw from.

Along with this point, I would also add that the venue affects the balance decisions too.  New York Phil at Kennedy Center or at Disney Hall would adjust based on the hall's characteristics.  Some cavernous spaces amplify sounds and some absorb it.

[jochanaan]

Maybe "joke" was putting it wrongly.
But I think that the main theme is "hidden" on purpose in the lower strings. Everything is marked "fff" in that passage so one cannot really damp down the rest of the orchestra and it would be a grosser miscalculation by Beethoven than anything else to expect that the lower strings+bassoons should stick out. One can hear them but not clearly sticking out.

Perhaps we "cannot really," but orchestras do anyway.  Most players know that, when there are long notes or tremolos that don't really move, the main melody is not the long notes, so we automatically play them a little softer even if the conductor doesn't say so.  (Most of them do.)  We make a lot of little adjustments that aren't part of the score.

[Jo498]

Sure, I have not checked several recordings and never heard the piece live, but on recordings the theme in the bass is audible, it simply does not stick out the way one expects it at the beginning of a recapitulation.

I still find it very hard to believe that Beethoven should have been guilty of such a gross miscalculation (where would be a parallel passage at this stage of his career?) and I think it is supposed to be "different".
We have a loud tutti as a "goal" of the last strain of the development section and at the same time the recap sneaks in in the base without calling *too* much attention to it. But in the next phrase when the theme is repeated it becomes obvious that we are "already there" and have been for a few bars.
Unfortunately I cannot name a parallel right now but I am pretty sure that there are other movements in Beethoven (and probably already Haydn) when a recap "sneaks" in, in a different way than here, but with a similar goal of making a "standard event" interesting and original.