Why does it cost a small fortune to go to concerts in the U.S?

[oyasumi]

Most of the concerts I go to are free - student performances, non profit orchestras, or other groups or soloists that just want to perform. The lack of price doesn't always mean a lack of quality.

Of course, living in Hollywood, it's easier to find good free concerts.

[mahlertitan]

yeah, they get paid alot, and i am not just talking about the guest artists, i think the average members of Seattle PO get about 100000-300000 dollars a year, which is a considerable sum. Certainly higher than teachers, since most teachers in U.S get paid about 20000-30000 dollars a year.

[Don]

yeah, they get paid alot, and i am not just talking about the guest artists, i think the average members of Seattle PO get about 100000-300000 dollars a year, which is a considerable sum. Certainly higher than teachers, since most teachers in U.S get paid about 20000-30000 dollars a year.

$10,000 to $30,000 is a pitiful amount.  Office interns often make as much or more.  Teachers are also paid ridiculously low salaries.  Folks need to think about these poor paying professions before diving in with head and heart.

[Earthlight]

Without these folks I would rarely be able to afford a decent seat ($50-$75) and would have to opt to sit high and behind the symphony....in spite of the fact that half to two-thirds of the decent seats are usually empty anyways.

That sounds to me like the Denver Symphony has some management problems: a lack of vision, an inability to notice those empty seats, an institutional reluctance to reach out to the younger and/or less affluent crowd.

It could also mean that they sell a lot of season tix to wealthy patrons who don't often show up for the concert (though that wouldn't explain as many empty seats as you describe, unless Denverites are really absent-minded!).

yeah, they get paid alot, and i am not just talking about the guest artists, i think the average members of Seattle PO get about 100000-300000 dollars a year, which is a considerable sum. Certainly higher than teachers, since most teachers in U.S get paid about 20000-30000 dollars a year.

That sounds like a lot of money. (And judging from what I've heard about the tussles between the orch and Maestro Schwarz, they're still not happy.) But Seattle is (at least by rep; I've never been there) a wealthy city with a high cost of living and a certain amount of inflation compared to much of the country. A more telling comparison might be orchestral wages compared to that of teachers in Seattle.

[Novi]

$10,000 to $30,000 is a pitiful amount.  Office interns often make as much or more.  Teachers are also paid ridiculously low salaries.  Folks need to think about these poor paying professions before diving in with head and heart.

Don, I think there's an extra '0' in MahlerTitan's orchestral salary estimations although I don't know whether he meant 00, 000s or just 0, 000s.

Here in the UK, professional musicians get paid an abysmal salary.

This Guardian article from a couple of months ago talks about the poor working conditions in UK orchestras:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1700213,00.html

Apparently few string players, for example, earn more than 25 000 quid. To contextualise this, a quick check on the internet (not the most reliable source, but a good ballpark figure nonetheless) showed that graduate starting salaries are at around 23 000.

But I certainly agree with you that teachers are underpaid and undervalued.

[Don]

Don, I think there's an extra '0' in MahlerTitan's orchestral salary estimations although I don't know whether he meant 00, 000s or just 0, 000s.

But I certainly agree with you that teachers are underpaid and undervalued.

Wow!  I can't imagine that Seattle orchestra members get between $100,000 to $300,000 per year.  If they do, the more power to them.

[toledobass]

Wow!  I can't imagine that Seattle orchestra members get between $100,000 to $300,000 per year.  If they do, the more power to them.

That number doesn't seem right for an average member of the Seattle Symphony.  The latest job openings for bass have been in the 75 to 82k mark.

Allan

[Don]

That number doesn't seem right for an average member of the Seattle Symphony.  The latest job openings for bass have been in the 75 to 82k mark.

Allan

Not bad at all and much more than teachers, although I know that many members of the New Mexico Symphony Orchestra have to get second jobs to keep afloat (for some of them, the orchestra position is the 2nd job).

[mahlertitan]

Don, I think there's an extra '0' in MahlerTitan's orchestral salary estimations although I don't know whether he meant 00, 000s or just 0, 000s.

nope, the figures are an very close estimate, Gerald Schwarz gave a lecture in my university once, he said that he made sure that the musicians are well paid, and even said that he doesn't make any more money than his players. So, logically, the maestro probably makes around 300000 (that's 3 hundred thousand dollars), his musicians salaries probably ranges not too far from that.

you have to remember that in Britain, there are more people doing classical music, (more supplies). In the States, there are less quality musicians, so (less supplies), logically they get to paid more.

[Heather Harrison]

In the U.S., I suppose some of the top orchestras and top names can charge a fortune and still get an audience.  However, at other locations, the prices are generally a lot more reasonable.  A few weeks ago, I went to an all-Sibelius concert performed by the Utah Symphony, with Hilary Hahn as the soloist in the violin concerto.  My ticket for this concert was part of my season subscription, and if I remember correctly, it was about $30.  Even without discounts, it would have been under $50.  So even when they get a top soloist, the price is reasonable.  That concert was much better attended than most, and during intermission there was a huge line of people trying to get Hahn's autograph.

The Utah Symphony is an excellent orchestra, even if it isn't one of the world's best known.  I guess I can feel lucky that I live in a place with a good orchestra that doesn't charge a fortune for tickets.  Regular prices run about $12 to $50, and student tickets are $8.  They often attract the top soloists, and the ticket prices are the same regardless of whether or not somebody famous is performing.

The Utah Opera also doesn't charge an arm and a leg for tickets.  The best seats (except those which only patrons can buy) are available for about $60.

If ticket price is a concern, perhaps the secret is in finding orchestras and opera companies that aren't the best known, but are still very good.

Heather

[Novi]

nope, the figures are an very close estimate, Gerald Schwarz gave a lecture in my university once, he said that he made sure that the musicians are well paid, and even said that he doesn't make any more money than his players. So, logically, the maestro probably makes around 300000 (that's 3 hundred thousand dollars), his musicians salaries probably ranges not too far from that.

you have to remember that in Britain, there are more people doing classical music, (more supplies). In the States, there are less quality musicians, so (less supplies), logically they get to paid more.

Oh wow, that's impressive! (Sorry, didn't mean to gainsay you, MahlerTitan ).

But surely the relative parity between MD and rank and file salaries cannot be that common either side of the Atlantic.

[Bunny]

Oh wow, that's impressive! (Sorry, didn't mean to gainsay you, MahlerTitan ).

But surely the relative parity between MD and rank and file salaries cannot be that common either side of the Atlantic.

I don't think there's similar parity in NY.  I believe that starting salary for a chair in first violins in the NYPO somewhere around $80,000; so with seniority the salary will rise probably to the $250,000 range for the concertmaster.  I suspect that the MD/principal conductor of the orchestra gets considerably more.  They probably get at least $500 k per year and for a famous name who's also going to be splitting his time with another orchestra, conceivably more.  I also wonder about various perks they may get as well such as the use of an apartment in the city, a car and driver, etc.  Soloists usually operate on a fixed fee per appearance basis which can probably run very high if they are hot which is why costs per concert can vary as well. 

[MishaK]

I don't think there's similar parity in NY.  I believe that starting salary for a chair in first violins in the NYPO somewhere around $80,000; so with seniority the salary will rise probably to the $250,000 range for the concertmaster.  I suspect that the MD/principal conductor of the orchestra gets considerably more.  They probably get at least $500 k per year and for a famous name who's also going to be splitting his time with another orchestra, conceivably more.  I also wonder about various perks they may get as well such as the use of an apartment in the city, a car and driver, etc.  Soloists usually operate on a fixed fee per appearance basis which can probably run very high if they are hot which is why costs per concert can vary as well. 

Starting salary at the top US orchestras is around $100K. I belive it's around $125K at NYPO and CSO these days (that's not really that much if you consider starting salaries at Wall Street law firms are $125K plus bonus). But I don't believe the principal chairs make that much more. They might beef up their incomes with teaching positions at conservatories or chamber performances. Salaries are considerably less at less famous orchestras. At a lesser known German orchestra, even if it's still in the official "A" category, a musician might only make EUR50K a year.

A top soloist like Anne Sophie Mutter (reputedly one of the most expensive) may command up to $30K for a single concerto appearance. A relative unknown will not get anywhere near this amount. Compensation for music directors will vary greatly by orchestra and the fame of the MD. Government-run European orchestras generally pay less but offer other advantages (like not having to deal with fundrasing and other administrative aspects). That being said, the top conductors these days are often paid up to $1.2M for a music directorship. I believe Maazel was the best paid recently with something around $1.5M. It has nothing to do with whether or not they split their time with another orchestra as a music directorship is usually a 12-week commitment, plus tours, may be more for an opera MD. The rest of the year is filled with guest conductors. I can't find my source at the moment, though. Again, lesser known conductors don't make anywhere near such amounts. They'll be lucky to be in the low six digits.

[Greta]

Just ordered my tickets for an all-Wagner concert coming up by the Houston Symphony, conducted by Claus Peter Flor. Splurged on center Grand Tier tickets at $75 each - for two people, plus a 3 hr drive's gas, and dinner, that's an expensive night out.

Biggest tally for a Houston concert for me was actually when we went to see Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings Symphony and sat center Orchestra, 8th row - $95 each, with tax easily totaled above $200.

Pops-type concerts are even more expensive, they're usually about $15-20 higher across the board, which seems surprising a bit, but I guess because they often get well-known vocalists.

If you want to sit in lesser seats a symphonic concert drops to around $40-$50, I think their prices are a little too high.

Very best seats for the Houston Chamber Orchestra are $30, not to mention their deep student and senior discounts. Smaller group, smaller hall, but a wonderful experience.

Live opera is just too expensive for me...maybe someday...

[Poetdante]

An interesting topic to me!

I'm living in Korea.
Last year, when WPO came to the Korea, the best R class seat was an amount of nearly $400. 
I saw a concert of WPO in Sydney, Austrailia in September 2006, with an $140 seat of which quality was good.

When I heard the fee of Carnegie Hall, I was very surprised that it is so cheap.
Sometimes I just want to go U.S.A. to see the great concerts. 

Anyway, if CSO or BSO came to the Korea,
maybe their ticket will be more expensive than $200.
Though I agree their performance can be worth for paying, but actually it's too expensive for me.

[Steve]

I too take advantage of the CSO Web Student Program which sells prime tickets for 10 dollars (13 with processing fee). Recently, however, I splurged to see Tchaikovsky's 6th and meet guest violinist Hilary Hahn. Those seets only set me back about $100 for two people. They were wonderful seats, too. 

[Bunny]

Starting salary at the top US orchestras is around $100K. I belive it's around $125K at NYPO and CSO these days (that's not really that much if you consider starting salaries at Wall Street law firms are $125K plus bonus). But I don't believe the principal chairs make that much more. They might beef up their incomes with teaching positions at conservatories or chamber performances. Salaries are considerably less at less famous orchestras. At a lesser known German orchestra, even if it's still in the official "A" category, a musician might only make EUR50K a year.

A top soloist like Anne Sophie Mutter (reputedly one of the most expensive) may command up to $30K for a single concerto appearance. A relative unknown will not get anywhere near this amount. Compensation for music directors will vary greatly by orchestra and the fame of the MD. Government-run European orchestras generally pay less but offer other advantages (like not having to deal with fundrasing and other administrative aspects). That being said, the top conductors these days are often paid up to $1.2M for a music directorship. I believe Maazel was the best paid recently with something around $1.5M. It has nothing to do with whether or not they split their time with another orchestra as a music directorship is usually a 12-week commitment, plus tours, may be more for an opera MD. The rest of the year is filled with guest conductors. I can't find my source at the moment, though. Again, lesser known conductors don't make anywhere near such amounts. They'll be lucky to be in the low six digits.

O Mensch, I don't doubt that your figures on the NYPO are correct, as the last time I checked the figures it was more than 2 years ago when a friend's daughter went into the first violins.  I'm sure they have been raised since then.  However, too many times I've been told by professional musicians and others in a position to know, that the BP is the best salaried orchestra around and it's probably looking even better now that the dollar is so weak against the Euro.  Whatever the exact figures, we do have to agree that the members of the major orchestras in the US are paid very well, especially if they are unionized. 

I read that article about the English musicians a few months ago and was surprised that they weren't paid better.  It's not as if there aren't plenty of recording contracts for the orchestras, nor is it because the orchestras aren't well funded, so I really couldn't understand why they couldn't be paid a bit more in England.

[MishaK]

O Mensch, I don't doubt that your figures on the NYPO are correct, as the last time I checked the figures it was more than 2 years ago when a friend's daughter went into the first violins.  I'm sure they have been raised since then.  However, too many times I've been told by professional musicians and others in a position to know, that the BP is the best salaried orchestra around and it's probably looking even better now that the dollar is so weak against the Euro.  Whatever the exact figures, we do have to agree that the members of the major orchestras in the US are paid very well, especially if they are unionized. 

I read that article about the English musicians a few months ago and was surprised that they weren't paid better.  It's not as if there aren't plenty of recording contracts for the orchestras, nor is it because the orchestras aren't well funded, so I really couldn't understand why they couldn't be paid a bit more in England.

I don't know what exactly the BPO members make, but aside from the Euro-Dollar exchange rate, consider that in Berlin you can live very comfortably with little money. If you just joined the NYPO and are making $125K, you can barely afford to live in Manhattan these days with studios costing from $1,900/month upwards. London is a similarly absurdly expensive city, so nominaly impressive salaries may not translate into much de facto buying power. Consider also that, at least for string players, purchasing instruments is a major investment.

[Novi]

An interesting topic to me!

I'm living in Korea.
Last year, when WPO came to the Korea, the best R class seat was an amount of nearly $400. 
I saw a concert of WPO in Sydney, Austrailia in September 2006, with an $140 seat of which quality was good.

When I heard the fee of Carnegie Hall, I was very surprised that it is so cheap.
Sometimes I just want to go U.S.A. to see the great concerts. 

Anyway, if CSO or BSO came to the Korea,
maybe their ticket will be more expensive than $200.
Though I agree their performance can be worth for paying, but actually it's too expensive for me.

Poetdante, I think I went to a performance of the same WPO tour last year, but at the Barbican . Was it with Gergiev? In fact, I remember reading that one of the Sydney concerts was the same programme we saw with Shosta 9 and Brahms 4. Did you like it?

The tickets at the Barbiacn were around 50 quid. But I suppose they have to travel further to get to Korea and Oz though. And I guess even at extortionate prices, the tickets sell out.   

[Siedler]

ROH tickets seem to cost up to £170.