The Great American Symphony

[Karl Henning]

I would rate Copland's Symphony 3 as great despite or because of its populist tendencies. However I would also rate William Schuman's Symphony 6. It is a grittier score than Schuman's better known Symphony 3. I have seen it described as 'a requiem for the 20th century'. I'd be interested to know what others thought of this work.

There is very little of Bill Schuman that I don't like.

Likewise.  I'd say the same of Mennin.

[Cato]

Well, let's remember that for many, the "warhorses" may be their first attendance to such a concert.  Let's not blame these great compositions for getting a lot of attention - rather, just lament that so very many great pieces of music don't get played because there just isn't an audience for them - ye olde butts-in-seats-syndrome.   Now if some of these filthy-rich multi-billionaires would put some effort into paying for performers and conductors and venues and thus having even low-attendance concerts available (and filmed for video release), it would be a more delightful world.

Maybe if Richard Bransom's fortune was appropriated by the state and used for such a purpose, eh wot?  (a deserving punishment for what happened at Virgin records around 1975 - the wankernacht.)

I'm afraid that the exciting times in America - back when Piston, Schuman, Barber, etc., were being premiered in-concert will probably never come back. 

So many strong American symphonies will have to be experienced via studio recordings unless something drastic happens - sometimes college orchestras put one on.

We note that large corporations and "multi-billionaires" have no problem placing their names on sports arenas. 

"The Mercedes-Benz Berlin Philharmonic."  "The Apple Symphony Orchestra."

In the good old days there was the "RCA Symphony Orchestra" and Toscanini had no qualms about conducting the NBC Orchestra.

Today the "CBS Orchestra" is a glorified klezmer band for the midnight show of a (sporadically funny) comedian.

I would be against anyone's bank account being "appropriated by the state" for any purpose!  Imagine rather a state which itself actually fosters the creation of wealth, of productivity, and of creativity itself!   

[Karl Henning]

I'm afraid that the exciting times in America - back when Piston, Schuman, Barber, etc., were being premiered in-concert will probably never come back. 

As a general thing (several major US orchestras whose music directors are ready to take "new music risk"), perhaps not.

I've never made any bones about my complaints with the endeavor (the conductor shuttling between Boston and the Met, and his working that gruelling schedule in defiance of medical advice), but Levine maintained (or, restored, we might argue) the BSO's commitment to new music, and one of the highlights for me of the Levine era was the première of the Wuorinen Eighth Symphony.

[Cato]

and one of the highlights for me of the Levine era was the première of the Wuorinen Eighth Symphony.

So is that a candidate for Great American Symphony?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Economics have to be considered too. Many years ago the most exciting concert programmed by my local Long Island Philharmonic included Shostakovich 10. I was keenly disappointed when it was cancelled but was told that renting the parts became prohibitive.

And oh, by the way, since I just found this out: the LI Philharmonic this year shut down permanently after 36 years due to financial problems. I myself gave up on the orchestra (whose music directors have included Christopher Keene and Marin Alsop) after the Shosty 10 debacle. But those who advocate riskier repertoire ought to take such occurrences into account.

[Karl Henning]

So is that a candidate for Great American Symphony?

I hesitate to say after but one performance  0:)

[Heck148]

Great works generally have to be groundbreaking (Schubert D759 & 944) or the culmination/perfection of a particular style (Beethoven 1-8) or both (Beethoven 9)... and also to contain no or very few miscalculations (thus Symphonie Fantastique and not Roméo et Juliette).

your criteria for great symphony is far too narrow and constricted...you leave out far too many outstanding works....
you don't like 20th century symphonies much at all, we get the picture....We've seen your list of what you considered great...you can have it... not for me...

[Heck148]

This gets into the issue of personal taste, so I'm not going to dispute your choices here; but both of them strike me as very strange. If we polled people in the know (musicians, critics etc.), how many would name these as the 2 greatest 20th century symphonies? I have no idea, but I doubt it would be many. (and yes, I happen to like them both)

Therefore, I classify your interesting post as "great-but-flawed."

well said!! 

[Heck148]

I mean we can list probably less than 5 that reach the apex from Americans, but pale next to the Europeans ..

I disagree strongly....there have been outstanding American symphonies, and outstanding European symphonies...I don't see a strong superiority of one over the other...

I do think that many 20th century symphonies are equal to, or better, than some of the most often performed works of the previous century...I think these 20th century works deserve much more performance exposure. believe me, if an orchestra is going to program Schuman Sym #3, or Hindemith Sym in Eb, I'll make every effort to get there!!

[Heck148]

I would rate Copland's Symphony 3 as great despite or because of its populist tendencies. However I would also rate William Schuman's Symphony 6. It is a grittier score than Schuman's better known Symphony 3. I have seen it described as 'a requiem for the 20th century'. I'd be interested to know what others thought of this work.

I like Schuman #6, but I'm still getting into it....I like 8 about the same, and 9 and 10 are really quite excellent. #3 is the one that reaches right ut and grabs you - it's a very tough score to play, very demanding parts - but when done well - NYPO, Chicago, it is a real knockout...would love to hear it live.

[Heck148]

Like finding the lack of a cutting edge to be "a flaw" in an exquisite spoon.

very good!!

[James]

I disagree strongly....there have been outstanding American symphonies, and outstanding European symphonies...I don't see a strong superiority of one over the other...

You may disagree but that doesn't change things.

I do think that many 20th century symphonies are equal to, or better, than some of the most often performed works ..

Not many, a few - and they are not from Americans.

[Heck148]

You may disagree but that doesn't change things.

right, there are great works both American and European...

Not many, a few - and they are not from Americans.

yes, there are, and some composed by Americans.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

And oh, by the way, since I just found this out: the LI Philharmonic this year shut down permanently after 36 years due to financial problems. I myself gave up on the orchestra (whose music directors have included Christopher Keene and Marin Alsop) after the Shosty 10 debacle. But those who advocate riskier repertoire ought to take such occurrences into account.

On the other hand, I'm often surprised by the off-the-beaten-path programming of no-name suburban orchestras. If I wanted to hear a symphony by Franz Schmidt in the Chicago area, I had to go to Northbrook (a suburb). My most-local orchestra even has its own composer-in-residence. But of course these unusual pieces are generally sandwiched or accompanied with something more standard.

[James]

right, there are great works both American and European...

European yes; American .. yet to be seen on that level. You can disagree - but that will not change this fact.

yes, there are, and some composed by Americans.

Which American Symphonies? (this ought to be good for a laugh)

[Heck148]

European yes; American .. yet to be seen on that level. You can disagree - but that will not change this fact.

I do disagree, and your opinion is certainly not fact.

Which American Symphonies?

Many have already been named on this thread. go read them...better yet, go listen to them.

[Mirror Image]

You're wasting your time with James, Heck128. You're really better off arguing with a brick wall. Just remember: he's ALWAYS right and you're ALWAYS wrong.

[Heck148]

You're wasting your time with James, Heck128. You're really better off arguing with a brick wall. Just remember: he's ALWAYS right and you're ALWAYS wrong.

I know the type...

[Mirror Image]

I know the type...

Don't we all!

[Karl Henning]

You may disagree but that doesn't change things.

Least of all, James's mind.