The Great American Symphony

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Interesting post M. Croche and I do see what you mean re her excessive use of glissandi. However I find that there are many interesting things happening on the much smaller scale when listening to the relationships of one line against another line of music...her music is very linear and the slow evolution of ideas is what I find very compelling and interesting.

Also, many of her works do not simply rely on heaps of slow moving glissandi like some of her works do. She does have quite a variety of sounds and techniques she employs in her compositions.....perhaps her symphonic glisses are just what people think of when they hear the name 'coates' and it puts people off initially.

[hpowders]

I'm new here and too damn lazy to go back and read all these posts.

My favorite American symphonist is William Schuman and it is an absolute scandal that no major American orchestra has recently recorded symphonies 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

Why must they have to give us new recordings of the Brahms 4 or Beethoven 9? We don't NEED them!

I know! I know! Simple economics! A real shame! 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

It's more of a scandal that Gloria Coates is so rarely performed at all!

[Heck148]

My favorite American symphonist is William Schuman and it is an absolute scandal that no major American orchestra has recently recorded symphonies 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

Bravo!! If you do read the earlier posts, you will see that there is considerable support for those fine Schuman symphonies you mention, esp #3 - my nomination for Great American Symphony.

[hpowders]

I'm a bit lazy to look back too,has anyone mentioned Henry Cowell's Symphonies? 

Yes. His mother!

[hpowders]

Bravo!! If you do read the earlier posts, you will see that there is considerable support for those fine Schuman symphonies you mention, esp #3 - my nomination for Great American Symphony.

Good to hear some folks here are Schuman champions! 

Well No. 3 is the most played, which isn't saying much these days.

If it wasn't for Naxos' American Classics Series with Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony, I wouldn't have ever heard 4, 7 or 10. All three have become favorites of mine.

An unjustly neglected great composer from the mid-20th century. This guy was a fantastic composer!

What happened?

[arpeggio]

I can not pick just one.

Some of my favorites include:

Barber First
Hanson Second
Piston Second
Mennin Seventh
Bernstein Second
There are several large scale Carter works that could be considered symphonies.
Schuman Third and Sixth
Ives Second
Riegger Third
Persichetti Fourth
There are a whole bunch others by the likes of Rochberg, Sessions, Harbison and many more.

Then there are the band ones that include:

Persichetti Sixth
Gould West Point
Giannini Third
Schuller Third
Maslanka Fourth
H. Owen Reed La Fiesta Mexicana
Ingolf Dahl Sinfonietta
Ticheli Second
Husa Prague 1968.  Although it is not a symphony it is symphonic in nature.  Then Husa was a Czech that spent most of his life in America.  He immigrated here when he was in his early thirties and taught at Cornell.

And a whole bunch more.

I really do not have the wherewithal to pick just one.

[Cato]

There are several large scale Carter works that could be considered symphonies.

For example:

Elliott Carter: Symphonia sum fluxae pretium spei

[arpeggio]

Is this a pop quiz? OK, this time I will play.

My favorite is the Variations.  Of course technically it is not a symphony.  If Mennin's Variation Symphony (Seventh) can count maybe this one as well? But if you guys do not think counts OK.

There are the Concerto for Orchestra, the Symphony for Three Orchestras and the early Symphony No. 1.

I apologize if I am citing works that have already been mentioned.

[Ken B]

What happened?

I think it's a lost opportunity by second tier orchestras. This the natural home for more adventurous repertoire that still has audience appeal. After all, they cannot match my BPO recording of Beethoven, but there won't BE a BPO recording of Piston. I tried to get a local music director interested in Virgil Thomson's symphonies, which are perfect for a local orchestra, but alas with no success.

[Dax]

I'm a bit lazy to look back too,has anyone mentioned Henry Cowell's Symphonies? 

Yes. I did on page 1. Enthusiastic responses were not forthcoming!

Outside of Ives and Cowell, I've heard few American symphonies. I'm surprised Cowell hasn't been mentioned yet: I came across the Madras recently and found it pretty impressive. I'm not really a fuguing-tune enthusiast but I do have a lot of time for Ray Green's Sunday Sing Symphony. Does anyone else?

[hpowders]

If pressed to identify my favorite Schuman Symphonies, it would be a tie between No. 6 and No. 9.

[Karl Henning]

If pressed to identify my favorite Schuman Symphonies, it would be a tie between No. 6 and No. 9.

Likewise, though I freely admit I can stand to know them all even better.

[hpowders]

Likewise, though I freely admit I can stand to know them all even better.

Yes. They are not "easy listening". I've spent a lot of time with them, much like Schoenberg's Piano Concerto.

I'm still hearing new things in the Schuman 6 and 9 after years of listening to them! 

[Heck148]

Good to hear some folks here are Schuman champions! 

Well No. 3 is the most played, which isn't saying much these days.

Bernstein made a remake with NYPO, on DG back in '85, but his original 1960 is better.
Slatkin/CSO made a live recording back in '86 [CSO Archive set - <<CSO in 20th Century>>]...both it and Bernstein I are great recordings, wouldn't want to be without either. Haven't heard Schwarz with #3.

If it wasn't for Naxos' American Classics Series with Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony, I wouldn't have ever heard 4, 7 or 10. All three have become favorites of mine.

Schwarz/Seattle is quite good overall - quite equal, overall to alternate versions of each -
-Better than Mester/Louisville #4
-Not quite as good as Maazel/Pitts SO in #7
-about equal to Slatkin/StLSO in #10
Schwarz does a good job with #6, equal, IMO to the older Ormandy/Phila

[hpowders]

Bernstein made a remake with NYPO, on DG back in '85, but his original 1960 is better.
Slatkin/CSO made a live recording back in '86 [CSO Archive set - <<CSO in 20th Century>>]...both it and Bernstein I are great recordings, wouldn't want to be without either. Haven't heard Schwarz with #3.
Schwarz/Seattle is quite good overall - quite equal, overall to alternate versions of each -
-Better than Mester/Louisville #4
-Not quite as good as Maazel/Pitts SO in #7
-about equal to Slatkin/StLSO in #10
Schwarz does a good job with #6, equal, IMO to the older Ormandy/Phila

There's also a very fine modern recording of No. 6 with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra.

[arpeggio]

After the premier of the Third Symphony Schuman made some significant cuts to the Symphony.

Joseph Polisi discussed them in his fine biography of Schuman:



[asin]https://www.amazon.com/American-Muse-Times-William-Schuman/dp/1574671731/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474034724&sr=1-1&keywords=American+muse+william+schuman[/asin]

There is a copy of the original with the Library of Congress.  In 2005 Leonard Slatkin and the National Symphony performed the original.

According to Polisi: "In retrospect, it is possible that the cuts made by the composer, Koussevitzky and Bernstein might have been precipitous.  In 2005 Slatkin and the National Symphony some of the cut material, which in the opinion of informed listeners made the symphony much stronger" (page 64).

I was at that concert and with the restored sections it was a much stronger work.  The audience's reaction was very positive and the performance received an enthusiastic standing ovation.  Even my wife stood and she rarely stands for anything.  If I recall correctly according to the program notes and comments made by Slatkin all of the cuts were restored.  Slatkin knew Schuman when he was at Julliard.  At that time he was unaware of the cuts so he never could find out exactly why Schuman made them.

There is also a fine triple biography of Schuman, Persichetti and Mennin by Walter Simmons:



[asin]https://www.amazon.com/William-Schuman-Vincent-Persichetti-Mennin/dp/B01A65KVVG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474036073&sr=1-1&keywords=walter+simmons+voices+of+stone+and+steel[/asin]

[PerfectWagnerite]

I don't know man, is this the best we in the States have to offer: Schuman's 3rd? Don't we have something that remotely approaches the best from Germany and Austria?

BTW am I the only one who think Schuman shares a striking resemblance to Lorin Maazel?

[Karl Henning]

After the premier of the Third Symphony Schuman made some significant cuts to the Symphony.

Joseph Polisi discussed them in his fine biography of Schuman:

[asin]1574671731[/asin]

There is a copy of the original with the Library of Congress.  In 2005 Leonard Slatkin and the National Symphony performed the original.

According to Polisi: "In retrospect, it is possible that the cuts made by the composer, Koussevitzky and Bernstein might have been precipitous.  In 2005 Slatkin and the National Symphony some of the cut material, which in the opinion of informed listeners made the symphony much stronger" (page 64).

I was at that concert and with the restored sections it was a much stronger work.  The audience's reaction was very positive and the performance received an enthusiastic standing ovation.  Even my wife stood and she rarely stands for anything.  If I recall correctly according to the program notes and comments made by Slatkin all of the cuts were restored.  Slatkin knew Schuman when he was at Julliard.  At that time he was unaware of the cuts so he never could find out exactly why Schuman made them.

Very cool story.  One conductor who is an online acquaintance and I have a sharp disagreement about cuts to the Rakhmaninov First Symphony.

[Karl Henning]

I don't know man, is this the best we in the States have to offer: Schuman's 3rd? Don't we have something that remotely approaches the best from Germany and Austria?

Well, in the first place, I think that Schuman waxed better still after the Third.

In the second:  have you heard the uncut Third?  I mean, specifically as a response to arpeggio's post, your question looks rather speculatively derogatory.  (And even given the cut Third, which must be the symphony as I know it, I wonder what you've got against it.)

And, I'll ask:  what symphonies contemporaneous to Schuman written in Germany and Austria do you consider to be clearly way above the league of the Schuman Third?

Edit :: minor typo / I blame autocorrect