The Great American Symphony

[Karl Henning]

Bernstein made a remake with NYPO, on DG back in '85, but his original 1960 is better.
Slatkin/CSO made a live recording back in '86 [CSO Archive set - <<CSO in 20th Century>>]...both it and Bernstein I are great recordings, wouldn't want to be without either. Haven't heard Schwarz with #3.
Schwarz/Seattle is quite good overall - quite equal, overall to alternate versions of each -
-Better than Mester/Louisville #4
-Not quite as good as Maazel/Pitts SO in #7
-about equal to Slatkin/StLSO in #10
Schwarz does a good job with #6, equal, IMO to the older Ormandy/Phila

Cheers, Heck!  I should have known to count on you for this thorough rundown 

Your post reminds me that, in fact, I have that Ormandy recording of the Sixth . . . I ought to revisit it this afternoon.

[arpeggio]

I am not a musicologist so any observations that I make are highly personal and at best anecdotal.

I do have a book that may shed some light on the subject.  The Symphony-A Listener's Guide by Michael Steinberg.  According to the bio on the book, Mr. Steinberg "...is the program annotator of the San Fancisco Symphony and the New York Philharmonic and earlier served the Goston Symphony in the same capacity.  He has been on the faculty of the Manhattan School of Music and the New England Conservatory, has lectured and taught widely in America and Europe, and was the music critic for the Boston Globe for twelve years."

[asin]https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Listeners-Guide-Michael-Steinberg-ebook/dp/B001AMULTW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474037514&sr=1-1&keywords=symphony+michael+steinberg#nav-subnav[/asin]

In the book he discusses the following American Symphonies:

Copeland: Short Symphony (No. 2)
Hanson: Symphony No. 4, Requiem
Harbison: Symphony No. 2
Ives: Symphony No. 4
Piston: Symphony No. 2
Piston: Symphony No. 6
Schuman: Symphony No. 3
Schuman: Symphony No. 6

I am familiar with and enjoy all of these works.

[arpeggio]

I don't know man, is this the best we in the States have to offer: Schuman's 3rd? Don't we have something that remotely approaches the best from Germany and Austria?

Responding to observations like this has gotten me into trouble in other forums.

So what? I am not a music scholar so I really do not know the answer to that question.

All I can say is this.  I have performed the Hanson Second, the Persichetti No. 6 for Band, Dahl's Sinfonietta and Reed's La Fiesta Mexicana.  I have gotten as big a high performing these works as I have performing any symphony of Beethoven.

Beyond that I have nothing to say.

[Karl Henning]

Responding to observations like this has gotten me into trouble in other forums.

So what? I am not a music scholar so I really do not know the answer to that question.

All I can say is this.  I have performed the Hanson Second, the Persichetti No. 6 for Band, Dahl's Sinfonietta and Reed's La Fiesta Mexicana.  I have gotten as big a high performing these works than I have performing any symphony of Beethoven.

Beyond that I have nothing to say.

I still remember, as if it had been yesterday, the horn rips in La fiesta mexicana!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well, in the first place, I think that Schuman waxed better still after the Third.

In the second:  have you heard the uncut Third?  I mean, specifically as a response to arpeggio's post, your question looks rather speculatively derogatory.  (And even given the cut Third, which must be the symphony as I know it, I wonder what you've got against it.)

And, I'll ask:  what symphonies contemporaneous to Schuman written in Germany and Austria do you consider to be clearly way above the league of the Schuman Third?

Edit :: minor typo / I blame autocorrect

Didn't mean it to be derogatory. Have Bernstein x 2 and Schwarz, now which one is uncut?

Sorry drawing a blank when it comes to Germany/Austria. I can think of quite a few from Scandanavia, Russia or even France. It's like Mahler died and that is it.

I think it is unfair to compare the American Symphony to European anyway. There are some great great American music, just not really in the Symphonic form. Then again there is nothing in Germany/Austrian quite like Appalachian Spring either. It is as if the Germans placed the Symphony as a form as the apotheosis of artistic achievement but we do not. In fact if you dapple in the symphonic form you are considered "old-fashioned" and blackmarked.

Check out this rather interesting 10cd set celebrating American music:
http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/american.html

There are maybe 3 or 4 symphonies in there.

[arpeggio]

I still remember, as if it had been yesterday, the horn rips in La fiesta mexicana!

Are you kidding.  There are so many moments in that Symphony.  Like that unbelievable bass clarinet/contrabass clarinet soli in the first movement.  And the percussion parts are awesome.

This has become a standard work performed at band concerts.  I have found over twenty live performances on YouTube, including a marching band half time show based on it.  Of course that may be too vulgar for some so I did not post a link to it.

[Karl Henning]

Didn't mean it to be derogatory. Have Bernstein x 2 and Schwarz, now which one is uncut?

None of the above    Per arpeggio's very interesting post, it was a live performance by Slatkin and the National Symphony in 2005.

Sorry drawing a blank when it comes to Germany/Austria. I can think of quite a few from Scandanavia, Russia or even France. It's like Mahler died and that is it.

Well, but it was you who mentioned Germany & Austria  0:)  I can think of Henze and Hartmann;  and not to make it a bracketology exercise . . . I prefer Schuman's voice to Henze's.  The Hartmann symponies are excellent, but —

I think it is unfair to compare the American Symphony to European anyway.

Exactly . . . comparisons can quickly get squishy.

There are some great great American music, just not really in the Symphonic form.

Well, you and I are in sharp disagreement there.

In fact if you dapple in the symphonic form you are considered "old-fashioned" and blackmarked.

Do you mean, by the musical authorities/establishment in Germany?  The "imported avant-garde æsthetic" in the States in the late 50s and 60s shared that sort of "genre disdain."  And yet by now Wuorinen (whose musical chops can hold their own with any of the avant-gardistes) has now written eight symphonies.  The musical mindset in the States is (now) more pluralistic, though arguably in Schuman's day the avant-gardistes had a go at playing the if you don't do it our way, you are irrelevant card.  There was still a bit of a food fight, trying to claim the We Are the Mainstream! banner.

[Karl Henning]

Are you kidding.  There are so many moments in that Symphony.  Like that unbelievable bass clarinet/contrabass clarinet soli in the first movement.  And the percussion parts are awesome.

This has become a standard work performed at band concerts.  I have found over twenty live performances on YouTube, including a marching band half time show based on it.  Of course that may be too vulgar for some so I did not post a link to it.

Aye, a great piece.  And since it's in three movements, arguably a kind of symphony for band, agreed.

[Cato]

Sorry drawing a blank when it comes to Germany/Austria. I can think of quite a few from Scandinavia, Russia or even France. It's like Mahler died and that is it.

My vote goes to Karl Amadeus Hartmann as the best symphonist of the Germans in that era: Schuman's Third dates from 1941, and Hartmann's First Symphony was born in 1936 as a "Symphonic Fragment" and later, after revisions and second and third thoughts, became his official First Symphony in 1950.   

The Fourth Symphony of Ernst Krenek dates from 1947,and the symphonies of Ernst Toch are not to be forgotten, although none of them date from the 1940's, the First seeing birth in 1950.  But should one consider them "Austrian" or "American" or "Austrian-American," or does it matter?

And what about Paul Hindemith and his Symphony in Eb from 1940?

As to whether their symphonies are superior to those of Schuman or Harris or others...   Now that is a delicate  0:)  question for another topic! 

[PerfectWagnerite]

My vote goes to Karl Amadeus Hartmann as the best symphonist of the Germans in that era: Schuman's Third dates from 1941, and Hartmann's First Symphony was born in 1936 as a "Symphonic Fragment" and later, after revisions and second and third thoughts, became his official First Symphony in 1950.   

The Fourth Symphony of Ernst Krenek dates from 1947,and the symphonies of Ernst Toch are not to be forgotten, although none of them date from the 1940's, the First seeing birth in 1950.  But should one consider them "Austrian" or "American" or "Austrian-American," or does it matter?

And what about Paul Hindemith and his Symphony in Eb from 1940?

As to whether their symphonies are superior to those of Schuman or Harris or others...   Now that is a delicate  0:)  question for another topic! 

Yes, all those you mentioned are excellent examples (don't know about the Toch whose work I have not heard).

I would add the 4th Symphony of Franz Schmidt and Symphony by Eric Wolfgang Korngold to the list.

Do you mean, by the musical authorities/establishment in Germany?  The "imported avant-garde æsthetic" in the States in the late 50s and 60s shared that sort of "genre disdain."  And yet by now Wuorinen (whose musical chops can hold their own with any of the avant-gardistes) has now written eight symphonies.  The musical mindset in the States is (now) more pluralistic, though arguably in Schuman's day the avant-gardistes had a go at playing the if you don't do it our way, you are irrelevant card.  There was still a bit of a food fight, trying to claim the We Are the Mainstream! banner.

Something like that. Dappling in the symphonic form sort of had the connotation that you are not "original". Take Howard Hanson for example, his symphonies are probably as good as anyone's but works like the Nordic and the Romantic were deemed by many as derivative because they didn't break any new grounds.

[Karl Henning]

Something like that. Dappling in the symphonic form sort of had the connotation that you are not "original". Take Howard Hanson for example, his symphonies are probably as good as anyone's but works like the Nordic and the Romantic were deemed by many as derivative because they didn't break any new grounds.

There was still a strong whiff of that musical odor in the music department at Buffalo when I was there.  Luckily the departments in Wooster and Charlottesville were more open-minded and artistically inquisitive.  Great music is where you find it, and where you make it.

[PerfectWagnerite]

There was still a strong whiff of that musical odor in the music department at Buffalo when I was there.  Luckily the departments in Wooster and Charlottesville were more open-minded and artistically inquisitive.  Great music is where you find it, and where you make it.

When I was in college John Harbison was on the music faculty(still is maybe) and was treated like royalty. I never understood what is so great or even remotely great about his music. Yet he kept getting commissions left and right (at least it seems so). The university orchestra even performed some of his music - just a bunch of haphazard sounds it seems.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, did you go to MIT?  I believe he has retired (from teaching).  He is certainly (to borrow a phrase from Kenneth Woods's blog) in the Club, and he can fulfill as many commissions as he has any inclination to write.  He is a very nice chap, and I know some musicians who think very well of his music.  For myself, I've found what I have heard of his well written, but I have yet to hear the piece of his which I want to go back to for a second listen.

[Karl Henning]

I mean, pending any of our neighbors here making a strong case for them, I do not see any interest on my part in the Harbison symphonies.

But then, 15 years ago, I would not have seen any interest on my part in the Hanson symphonies.

[Cato]

Yes, all those you mentioned are excellent examples (don't know about the Toch whose work I have not heard).

See my reviews of his symphonies here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php?topic=3190.0;wap2

[PerfectWagnerite]

Oh, did you go to MIT?  I believe he has retired (from teaching).  He is certainly (to borrow a phrase from Kenneth Woods's blog) in the Club, and he can fulfill as many commissions as he has any inclination to write.  He is a very nice chap, and I know some musicians who think very well of his music.  For myself, I've found what I have heard of his well written, but I have yet to hear the piece of his which I want to go back to for a second listen.

Yes for undergraduate, but music was merely a hobby. Yes he was a very nice man which is why I sometimes feel maybe I am not giving his music its due but I just don't hear what all the accolades were about. What probably didn't help was that when the university orchestra programmed his works they would play a "warhorse" piece in the same concert which makes his works even more out of place and hard to comprehend.

I am not sure whether he actually TAUGHT any courses when I was there. There were professors in EVERY department, really famous but you never see in the classrooms. He was sort of like one of them. Gets in every photograph or every pamphlet they have on the school though.

Well, Michael Tilson Thomas has shown keen interest in American works with the BSO and SFSO.
I was hoping for a Schuman Symphony set from him.
I mean surely that is a more worthy project than the recording of the Bryant orchestration of the Ives Concord Sonata.

That is precisely why I have great respect for JoAnn Falletta and the Buffalo Philharmonic. In addition to a lot of great American works they champion works sort of on the fringe of the standard repertoire and took risks in expensive recordings like Gliere's 3rd. They didn't go the "safe" route of doing another Shostakovich or Schumann cycle.

[hpowders]

I think it's a lost opportunity by second tier orchestras. This the natural home for more adventurous repertoire that still has audience appeal. After all, they cannot match my BPO recording of Beethoven, but there won't BE a BPO recording of Piston. I tried to get a local music director interested in Virgil Thomson's symphonies, which are perfect for a local orchestra, but alas with no success.

Well, Michael Tilson Thomas has shown keen interest in American works with the BSO and SFSO.
I was hoping for a Schuman Symphony set from him.
I mean surely that is a more worthy project than the recording of the Bryant orchestration of the Ives Concord Sonata.

[Karl Henning]

Yes for undergraduate, but music was merely a hobby. Yes he was a very nice man which is why I sometimes feel maybe I am not giving his music its due but I just don't hear what all the accolades were about. What probably didn't help was that when the university orchestra programmed his works they would play a "warhorse" piece in the same concert which makes his works even more out of place and hard to comprehend.

There is a lot of that, the thinking (supposedly) being that you need to lure the audiences in with a well-worn classic which they know they like, so they will take their New Music Pill.  Or, maybe they say this is a tack for audiences, but it's really what the musicians in the band need . . . .

[Mahlerian]

Oh, did you go to MIT?  I believe he has retired (from teaching).  He is certainly (to borrow a phrase from Kenneth Woods's blog) in the Club, and he can fulfill as many commissions as he has any inclination to write.  He is a very nice chap, and I know some musicians who think very well of his music.  For myself, I've found what I have heard of his well written, but I have yet to hear the piece of his which I want to go back to for a second listen.

This is more or less my impression as well.  His music doesn't fall readily into any school or pattern, but he manages nevertheless to have very little to say on his own.  Whenever I do find something striking in one of his works, it's forgotten just as readily.

[Ken B]

I must disagree with Karl. The American Symphonies really don't match the best German-Austrian ones.

Of course ditto for French, English, Swediesh, Italian, Czech, Romanian, Hungarian, Scottish, Canadian, Mexican, Bolivian, Congoese, Egyptian, Haitian, and Jamaican symphonies.

There are a lot of terrific American symphonies nonetheless. My pick is the Barber.

The really bad American symphony is Mennin 8.