Topic: Florestan´s Romantic Salon

[Florestan]

Scion, you're trying hard to emulate snyprrr but it's a long, long way to Tipperary... 

As for your avatar, at least pick one featuring the Romanian flag. To the best of my knowledge, horizontal black, red, yellow is the flag of no nation under the sun. 

[Scion7]

Hey, she's a blonde Romanian model - you need to cut her a little slack.   
That must be the post-EU nationalist Romanian flag!

[Florestan]

Hey, she's a blonde Romanian model - you need to cut her a little slack.   «»

Her name being...?

That most be the post-EU nationalist Romanian flag!

Our flag is nationalist enough, thank you.

And the slogan is stupid. Lesser Romania was created with the decisive help of the non-Romanian Napoleon III, Greater Romania with the decisive help of the non-Romanian Woodrow Wilson (not to mention the non-Romanian General Henri-Matthias Berthelot). The non-Romanian Karl von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen aka King Carol I was perhaps the greatest ruler we had, followed quite closely by his non-Romanian nephew and successor, King Ferdinand. The latter's non-Romanian wife Queen Mary nee Princess Mary of Edinburgh is one of the major diplomatic makers of Greater Romania.

If Romania would be only for Romanians then the non-Romanian Prince Charles would not be able to visit his beloved Transylvanian estate, actually he wouldn't have any more Transylvanian estate to begin with.   

[Scion7]

Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Florestan]

Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still not woken up from your wet dreams?

[Scion7]

Will this thread ever recover?   

[Cato]

Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If she is in the New Order, sign me up!!! 

[Florestan]

Will this thread ever recover?   

Post something of substance on topic and cross your fingers.

[Cato]

Will this thread ever recover?   

Post something of substance on topic and cross your fingers.

My fingers are now crossed!   

But to be on topic in a different way...

I was reading a biography of Louis Vierne, whose training included instruction by Cesar Franck, Charles-Marie Widor, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois and others who would be considered "Romantic-era" composers.

Vierne, however, might be considered "Post-Romantic."

So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?

[Ken B]

My fingers are now crossed!   

But to be on topic in a different way...

I was reading a biography of Louis Vierne, whose training included instruction by Cesar Franck, Charles-Marie Widor, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois and others who would be considered "Romantic-era" composers.

Vierne, however, might be considered "Post-Romantic."

So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?

So basically you are asking when someone leaves the Romantics: Romexit. Will Florestan inveigh against such miscreants? 

[Mirror Image]

 

If she is in the New Order, sign me up!!! 

+1 !!!!

[Scion7]

So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?

Basically, yes.  Almost all the music literature I've read - from textbooks to just muso pamphlets and books, calls post-Romantic that music which harkens back to the music of the Romantic era that was composed post-Second Viennese School - or thereabouts.  I would say it falls under the "I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see/hear it."

[Scion7]

Why am I in The Diner?  I'm a POET, dammit!

[Cato]

So today, for my 7th Grade Latin students, I was playing excerpts of the Dies Irae from the Requiem Mass, and began with the original plainchant by (maybe) Thomas of Celano, and then I went to Mozart's and then Verdi's.

One of the boys said that he much preferred the original plainchant, as did several others, which is an interesting contrast to previous years, where Verdi's Romantic version was usually chosen as the preferred one, and the original was left shivering in oblivion.  A highly intelligent girl said of the Verdi: "I think it's just too much showing off."  She also thought the Mozart, (full of Sturm und Drang in the beginning at least) was somewhat overdone.

Later I asked the boy what it was about the original which attracted him, and he said he thought it was the way the sounds echoed away, its "quiet" nature was mentioned, and he liked the melody more! 

So, Medieval Composer 1, Verdi and Mozart - 0    as far as this boy and some others were concerned!

I thought the idea of a great, bigger-than-life Romantic work like the Verdi Requiem being passed over in favor of plainchant would be of interest here.  I doubt that I have stumbled across a trend in the newest generation, even among a minority, but...

The recording is from the NAXOS Ego Sum Resurrectio: I find the performance too fast actually, but nicely done nevertheless.

[North Star]

So today, for my 7th Grade Latin students, I was playing excerpts of the Dies Irae from the Requiem Mass, and began with the original plainchant by (maybe) Thomas of Celano, and then I went to Mozart's and then Verdi's.

One of the boys said that he much preferred the original plainchant, as did several others, which is an interesting contrast to previous years, where Verdi's Romantic version was usually chosen as the preferred one, and the original was left shivering in oblivion.  A highly intelligent girl said of the Verdi: "I think it's just too much showing off."  She also thought the Mozart, (full of Sturm und Drang in the beginning at least) was somewhat overdone.

Later I asked the boy what it was about the original which attracted him, and he said he thought it was the way the sounds echoed away, its "quiet" nature was mentioned, and he liked the melody more! 

So, Medieval Composer 1, Verdi and Mozart - 0    as far as this boy and some others were concerned!

I thought the idea of a great, bigger-than-life Romantic work like the Verdi Requiem being passed over in favor of plainchant would be of interest here.  I doubt that I have stumbled across a trend in the newest generation, even among a minority, but...

The recording is from the NAXOS Ego Sum Resurrectio: I find the performance too fast actually, but nicely done nevertheless.

You mean to say you left out the Britten?!

[Cato]

You mean to say you left out the Britten?!

Sorry, not enough time!   

Later in the school year, for the 8th Grade, I think I will try the Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei by Elliott Carter.  I have used it now and then with not bad results.  The students translate part of the text, and then I play excerpts.

Romanticism would not be involved with that work...or would it?

If we agree that a certain lionization of the "Irrational" (usually seen as a reaction against the Enlightenment) is a hallmark of the 19th-century Romantics, then I do wonder more and more about the complaints against many of our 20th-century composers, as well as our contemporary ones.  The more I listen to them and our contemporary ones, I find that there is a great deal of expression of the "irrational" side, despite all the mathematical blather one sees in analyses about permutations, set theory, etc.   And if I see Webern's music described one more time as "cerebral" I will reach for my revolver! 

Because in the end the ultimate question is...how does it sound?  And when I hear e.g. Hartmann's Sixth and Seventh Symphonies, the Shostakovich Tenth, Wyschnegradsky's assorted quarter-tone works, Penderecki's Threnody, Ovchinnikov's Symphony #1, Explosante-fixe by Boulez, Saariaho's L'Amour de Loin, our own Luke Ottevanger's piano  works and Karl Henning's Annabel Lee or Out in the Sun, I believe that I hear an expressivity that will rival that of the Romantics, whether traditional tonality is used, stretched, or even meticulously avoided, and whether these composers sneer at the notions of the Romantics or not.

I realize, of course, that many do not hear this emotional intensity because of the composers' non-Romantic idiom: my own unsuccessful attempt to interest people in my quarter-tone efforts (I lost count of the wrinkled noses and incredulous faces I saw, as soon as the first notes were sounded) gave witness to this fact.  Again, despite that, I viewed my own oeuvre, no matter how experimental (e.g. 19-tone quarter-tone scales), as a descendant of the Romantic heritage of the 19th century.

That applies also to certain of my novels as well! 
 

[North Star]

Sorry, not enough time!   

Later in the school year, for the 8th Grade, I think I will try the Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei by Elliott Carter.  I have used it now and then with not bad results.  The students translate part of the text, and then I play excerpts.

Romanticism would not be involved with that work...or would it?

If we agree that a certain lionization of the "Irrational" (usually seen as a reaction against the Enlightenment) is a hallmark of the 19th-century Romantics, then I do wonder more and more about the complaints against many of our 20th-century composers, as well as our contemporary ones.  The more I listen to them and our contemporary ones, I find that there is a great deal of expression of the "irrational" side, despite all the mathematical blather one sees in analyses about permutations, set theory, etc.   And if I see Webern's music described one more time as "cerebral" I will reach for my revolver! 

Because in the end the ultimate question is...how does it sound?  And when I hear e.g. Hartmann's Sixth and Seventh Symphonies, the Shostakovich Tenth, Wyschnegradsky's assorted quarter-tone works, Penderecki's Threnody, Ovchinnikov's Symphony #1, Explosante-fixe by Boulez, Saariaho's L'Amour de Loin, our own Luke Ottevanger's piano  works and Karl Henning's Annabel Lee or Out in the Sun, I believe that I hear an expressivity that will rival that of the Romantics, whether traditional tonality is used, stretched, or even meticulously avoided, and whether these composers sneer at the notions of the Romantics or not.

I realize, of course, that many do not hear this emotional intensity because of the composers' non-Romantic idiom: my own unsuccessful attempt to interest people in my quarter-tone efforts (I lost count of the wrinkled noses and incredulous faces I saw, as soon as the first notes were sounded) gave witness to this fact.  Again, despite that, I viewed my own oeuvre, no matter how experimental (e.g. 19-tone quarter-tone scales), as a descendant of the Romantic heritage of the 19th century.

That applies also to certain of my novels as well! 

Yes, interesting indeed. I agree that separating what is called Modernism from Romanticism can be rather unfortunate, artificial and arbitrary, as - like you say - often the Modernists are just using new methods to reach higher planes of expressiveness, which indeed is as Romantic a goal as any.

(Oh, and you should have played the Stravinsky Dies irae from Requiem Canticles. . . time is not an excuse for leaving that one out )

[Cato]

Yes, interesting indeed. I agree that separating what is called Modernism from Romanticism can be rather unfortunate, artificial and arbitrary, as - like you say - often the Modernists are just using new methods to reach higher planes of expressiveness, which indeed is as Romantic a goal as any.

(Oh, and you should have played the Stravinsky Dies irae from Requiem Canticles. . . time is not an excuse for leaving that one out )

Well, perhaps tomorrow I might take care of that gap! 

Concerning my previous thoughts (and many thanks for the comments!), I must mention Mr. Modernist Pierre Boulez, because in one of the Mahler topics his marvelous recording of the complete Das Klagende Lied.  This recording (from 1970 I believe), along with his incredible effort with Schoenberg's Gurrelieder around the same time, mark the man at c. age 45 as having more than a toe or two in the "Romantic" pool.  And in his later years, we find him not averse at all to conducting Mahler again (a complete cycle), along with several of the Bruckner symphonies.

Speaking of Bruckner...

...from an interview with Boulez 5 years ago:

Incises is a very short piece, and sur Incises is one of your longest. Have you been surprised by yourself, by how long it became?

Boulez: Yes, I was surprised; although it really wasn’t surprising, since it was my tendency during that period to get rid of short forms and go for long forms. So I was ready to organise a long form, for sure. And it was the same for Derive II – I wanted to make a long statement.

Will you be proceeding in this direction in upcoming ensemble works?

Boulez: I suppose that now, for me, the ideal would be to compose a work with long moments and very short moments. And for a long time now, I have been thinking about trying to find contrast within a piece itself – to have strong moments, very long, and to have light, concentrated moments … I once said, when I was asked that question, that it was like marrying Bruckner with Webern.

How did your conducting of Bruckner influence your point of view on the long form?

Boulez: That was very important. I like his harmonic writing, which supports long development – at the end of the slow movement of the 9th, for instance (when the melodic line repeats and it’s very large). But this is less important to me than the segments which are there, because for me, the segments are too visible. But that’s not only a point of view – it’s a difference of centuries, not a difference of personalities. And I find that if the segments are too visible, you miss the point....

But Bruckner’s influence is surprising, since Bruckner wasn't part of French musical culture – at least not while you were growing up.

Boulez: Bruckner wasn’t even performed at all, and even as late as when Karajan brought along a symphony by Bruckner when he came on tour with the Berlin Philharmonic, the reaction in some of the papers was, “why did he bring this monster?” And even Messiaen – though you can imagine that there are some very strange ties between the universe of Messiaen and the universe of Bruckner – Messiaen said, “oh, Bruckner, that’s a lot of bridges.” Now in French, when you have a transition from one section to another one, you call that a bridge. And for Messiaen, Bruckner’s music was simply one of transition after transition after transition. And that’s very strange, and the French are indeed sometimes complete strangers to ways of musical thinking that are not native to their own practice....

My emphasis above.

See:

http://www.universaledition.com/news-en/newsdetail-en/items/boulez-interview

[San Antone]

"If the resonating ideas of the Enlightenment were reason, truth, nature, order, and objectivity, those of the coming Romantics would be the subjective, the instinctive, the uncanny, the sublime, and nature in its great and terrible face. As one essential Romantic writer, E. T. A. Hoffmann, put it, “Beethoven’s music sets in motion the mechanism of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and wakens just that infinite longing which is the essence of Romanticism.” The Aufklärung looked to a radiant future of social and scientific perfection; the Romantics looked to the fabled, mysterious, unreachable past. The eighteenth century longed for freedom and happiness. The nineteenth century was caught up not in longing toward an end but in longing for the delirium and pain of longing itself."

Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph by Jan Swafford

[Cato]

"If the resonating ideas of the Enlightenment were reason, truth, nature, order, and objectivity, those of the coming Romantics would be the subjective, the instinctive, the uncanny, the sublime, and nature in its great and terrible face. As one essential Romantic writer, E. T. A. Hoffmann, put it, “Beethoven’s music sets in motion the mechanism of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and wakens just that infinite longing which is the essence of Romanticism.” The Aufklärung looked to a radiant future of social and scientific perfection; the Romantics looked to the fabled, mysterious, unreachable past. The eighteenth century longed for freedom and happiness. The nineteenth century was caught up not in longing toward an end but in longing for the delirium and pain of longing itself."

Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph by Jan Swafford

Very nice!

It has become a cliche' among historians that the earthquake in Lisbon (November 1, 1755) also shook the Enlightenment, and thereby catalyzed the Romantic movement.  This is not entirely true, of course, but is not entirely wrong either.

Becoming conscious of Nature's chaotic essence, the creators, intellectuals, etc. in the Enlightenment were undoubtedly affected by the event.  However, consider that Goethe was only 6 years old at the time, and other Romantics were not yet born.  (e.g.  Proto-Romantic    Mozart was born a year later.)