Top 10 Most Wabi-Sabi Pieces you've heard

[James]

I don't agree with all of this, James, but I see your points. Specifically I don't really agree that this is just throwing around words, 'fancy verbiage.' As I say, I have personally found that the competing claims of these two styles which mean so much to me have stymied my own composing to a large extent. So it is clear to me, at any rate, that something is going on here, and something which to me is worth exploring. Call these different aesthetics by different name if you want, but they certainly exist. And as wabi sabi has a venerable and well-documented history stretching back many centuries and closely allied to Zen Buddhism, it seems to me to be a term which sums up this particular aesthetic very well.

Fancy verbiage as it has to be used in order to explain/justify things .. I don't really like this. Artists should find their own way (& learn from the best) .. they shouldn't worry about fitting within categories or camps.

For instance, Wabi sabi eschews urgency and forcefully heightened impact; it does not use precise measures, rulers, set squares. Plastics and man-made materials are not used. Fluctuations in regularity are of the essence. Music which has a precisely regular beat, especially one reinforced by drums, and music which is synthesized/electified/amplified in order to impose itself, are not really in tune with the wabi sabi aesthetic, I would say. Of course there are countless examples of pop and jazz which do fit closer to the wabi sabi ideal, of course - I'm thinking of obvious things like Blue in Green from Kind of Blue, probably because of Bill Evans' liner note which draws the parallel with a type of Japanese calligraphy which is very wabi sabi in essence. The 'unplugged' movement in pop music is/was a movement in the wabi sabi direction, too. But these are the exception to the general rule, IMO.

The best improv sounds like composition, so your Kind of Blue example is not that good. I would say jazz musicians are far more practiced/learned/engaged (level of intervention) in music & performance than the rest within popular musics, so further from wabi sabi .. than say even more naive/imperfect/crude music found within popular music where 'intervention', 'consciousness' usually sits or is minimal .. but then there, you certainly get life giving & joyous body rhythms .. and urgency, impact - which this "wabi-sabi" eschews. (making it sound even more dull & boring)

Anyway .. this "wabi-sabi", lots of rules & restrictions don't you think. Sounds ridiculous to be blunt and further dismissive.

As for wabi sabi being 'stillborn' or 'under-developed,' I find that rather dismissive of a way of thinking and working which, as I say, has been around for hundreds of years and to which countless artists have dedicated their lives. Nor is it 'easy' - I can attest to that myself. But, hey, it's all only opinion.

All very nice Luke - again, lots of talk here. Any musical results that illustrate the strength of this approach. Stuff that perhaps matches or compares to the very best, highly conscious, written composition?

[Luke]

Fancy verbiage as it has to be used in order to explain/justify things .. I don't really like this. Artists should find their own way (& learn from the best) .. they shouldn't worry about fitting within categories or camps.

Well, that is precisely what I've tried to do. But when I've come up against problems, it is surely natural to try to analyse them, and part of analysis is to put names to things.

The best improv sounds like composition, so your Kind of Blue example is not that good. I would say jazz musicians are far more practiced/learned/engaged (level of intervention) in music & performance than the rest within popular musics, so further from wabi sabi .. than say even more naive/imperfect/crude music found within popular music where 'intervention', 'consciousness' usually sits or is minimal .. but then there, you certainly get life giving & joyous body rhythms .. and urgency, impact - which this "wabi-sabi" eschews. (making it sound even more dull & boring)

It was you that said jazz sounded as if it fitted the definition of wabi sabi, not me. It was me that pointed out why it didn't, usually, so thanks for agreeing with me! 

That said, Bill Evans himself was the one that made the connection between Kind of Blue and Zen art (wabi sabi is 'the artistic expression of zen'), so my example was a response to that.

Anyway .. this "wabi-sabi", lots of rules & restrictions don't you think. Sounds ridiculous to be blunt and further dismissive.[/size][/font]

Not really, no. Keep it natural, don't force it, let it be itself, don't be too keen to make things regular and perfect. That's what it boils down to.

All very nice Luke - again, lots of talk here. Any musical results that illustrate the strength of this approach. Stuff that perhaps matches or compares to the very best, highly conscious, written composition?

Well, the examples I gave in my first post are things I think of as wabi sabi in music (though wabi sabi, AFAIK, is generally applied to visual arts/crafts, not to music). Outside the few classical composers who have written music which IMO falls within the wabi sabi guidelines, obviously the ancient classical shakuhachi repertoire of Japan is about the closest music can get to wabi sabi.

[James]

It was you that said jazz sounded as if it fitted the definition of wabi sabi, not me. It was me that pointed out why it didn't, usually, so thanks for agreeing with me!  at said, Bill Evans himself was the one that made the connection between Kind of Blue and Zen art (wabi sabi is 'the artistic expression of zen'), so my example was a response to that.

Well you sort-of agreed with me didn't you .. and a lot of it does though in certain regards, if we are to use that earlier group of words you used - parallels are easily drawn that way, making the 'words' game dodgy .. just not with that particular record. That tune sounds closer to Bill's love of the French impressionists (Debussy et al.) than anything else, despite what he says in liner notes.

Not really, no. Keep it natural, don't force it, let it be itself, don't be too keen to make things regular and perfect. That's what it boils down to.

Honestly, to be harsh .. sounds likes b.s. What you've said here can apply to music making on the whole, and does. At all levels. Beginner, intermediate, advanced.

Perfecting technique, getting into the details, pushing yourself and having a regular routine (practice) are staples to getting better and having that all deeply ingrained so that it's as natural and organic as breathing so that one doesn't have to think about it, or force it during the process of creation. Not being perfect, but being the best you can be, and realizing goals as best you can. Of course, this doesn't exclude the part about listening back to yourself, seeing what can be improved, refined, developed etc. Employing critical faculties .. editing, outside views etc.

Well, the examples I gave in my first post are things I think of as wabi sabi in music (though wabi sabi, AFAIK, is generally applied to visual arts/crafts, not to music). Outside the few classical composers who have written music which IMO falls within the wabi sabi guidelines, obviously the ancient classical shakuhachi repertoire of Japan is about the closest music can get to wabi sabi.

I went back and read ... I don't seen any specific creations listed that make the case, imported by Westerners or Japanese. At the end of the day, it is that which matters most - the rest is all talk. The deeds truly speak louder than words.

[Karl Henning]

I'm sure I enjoy the irony of James telling anyone else (but particularly our Luke) "lots of talk here."

[mszczuj]

Debussy Syrinx.

[Spineur]

Debussy Syrinx.

That's a good one.  As I was listening to the Danses sacrées et Profanes by Lily Laskine earlier today, it reminded me of the recording of traditional Japanese melodies for flute and harp they did together in 78 which is my collection.  It's also on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/v/iD-a3b5jexs

I cant think of any better music to chill out.

The sociological nature of GMG is pretty revealing when you see how everybody piles up in the pessimism thread...
Its nice to see that this thread takes the opposite route...

[Mirror Image]

Takemitsu's I Hear The Water Dreaming certainly applies here I think:

https://www.youtube.com/v/hqh1yqgf6lc