Johann Jakob Froberger

[rappy]

Ooops... I'm very sorry! Copied the wrong link.

Here's the sarabande: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff3oMbzbhg

The other piece is one of my compositions for an harpsichord with even 31 keys per octave. I opened a thread a while ago here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31960.0.html

[Mandryka]

Ha! It reminds me of an expression you would hear when I was a kid: the way you sing it will turn the milk sour. In fact, I rather like yoghurt, but this is extreme yoghurt with no honey. @premont , is this too hard core for you?

[rappy]

Interesting!
Would you mind to specify – are you referring to the tuning (or the instrument, way of playing, all together, ...)?
In fact the temperament is quite standard, regular meantone as it should be. Of course this piece in particular is super expressively dissonant with all the diminished fourths and chromatic septs. The only difference is that the Gb, which comes only once (at 0:22 and of course in the repetition) is tuned as a real Gb, thus higher than the F# (e.g. at the end of the 1st part). Other than that, the tuning is the same as in Rampe's recording (just that he has a lower pitch).

Look, I've attached the end of the first part of the famous Meditation faite sur ma mort future, which makes a cadence to F# major (in manuscript). All the notes you'd play on a 19-key-keyboard on the upper/additional black keys have a different sign (x instead of #). It seems pretty clear that at least that piece is intended to be played on a Cimbalo cromatico. Otherwise you'd need almost equal temperament (which surely wasn't used for keyboard instruments at that time) to have a bearable F# major chord at the end.

To me it's much purer on a Cimbalo cromatico since all the major thirds are pure. And it's more direct, focused. Always interesting to realize again how much the perception depends on habituation.

[Mandryka]

I think the pitch had something to do with my response actually, but there may be more to it. Here's Verlet, who I think is playing in quarter comma meantone, it feels more expressive to me -- though I know you have a problem with her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAyqQGA8Q1E&ab_channel=BlandineVerlet-Topic

[rappy]

Right, that one I mentioned:

(If you want to compare the piece in different temperaments: Verlet plays meantone with G# instead of Ab (to me very questionable, the G# sounds totally out of place), Rampe meantone with Ab tuned, but Gb as F# (possible, I think), Rousset well tempered (the tuning is a bit flat in comparison).

To me that's the most "sour" of all, with all the Abs tuned as G# being terribly out of tune. The most obvious difference is of course the tempo. I don't like the mid 17th century sarabande to be played that slow, I think it slowed down only later in France (compare e. g. a sarabande by the contemporary Andreas Hammerschmidt). Furthermore she plays from a flawed source, the first part having irregular 11 bars. But apart from that, it's all very subjective of course... I like Rampe much more, although it's also too slow for my taste and he ends with a minor chord, which is not written in any source and stylistically nonsense... (I'm hard, sorry )

[Mandryka]

Here's Asperen's note on the suite.


https://i.ibb.co/SVsnsxm/Capture.jpg

I'll listen to Rampe later this evening.


Maybe part of my response to your performance is just that I'm not in the groove of listening to harpsichord music any more -- the past six months I've heard very little, and probably no Froberger.  I've had a diet of Chopin and Scriabin and Liszt!

[Mandryka]

Well I certainly feel that yours is more dissonant than Rampe's, somehow in yours the sounds in the left hand seem to clash with the sounds in the right!

And I've enjoying one which is probably unHIP by today's standards - Egarr.

It's been too long since I last listened to Froberger.

[prémont]

@premont , is this too hard core for you?

No, I find it very convincing.

But this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbf34iOrQdI

is too harsh for me.

[rappy]

I finally decided to upload the whole Suite. If anybody cares:

[Mandryka]

Well that's gorgeous, thanks. I like the way you let the music breath,  the way it never feels hurried or tense, so that I can enjoy each phrase. And I like the fluidity of your phrasing, intimate rather than dramatic gestures. And somehow I'm totally happy about the Sarabande now, maybe it's hearing it in context.

[rappy]

Thank you. I took much better microphones to record this time (that might make quite a difference for the listening experience) and took the Sarabande just a tiny bit slower.

[rappy]

And finally, here's my favourite suite, no. 18 in g:

[Mandryka]

Was just thinking of Froberger, @rappy -- in particular Jaroslav Tuma's improvisations in Froberger's style. Do people teach baroque improvisation in Schola Cantorum Basiliensis?

By the way, while I've got your attention, let me ask another question about the Schola Cantorum -- is there an early music festival? Something which would make it interesting for me to spend a few days in Basel (which I've never seen) for the music? I once met someone in the Utrecht festival who said there was, but I've never been able to find details.

Will listen to your suite 18 later.  the allemande can be a pretty deep and dark piece of music.

[rappy]

Dear Mandryka,

I think there's no main festival, but a lot going on here during the whole year. There's much contemporary music as well as early music and of course mainstream classical-romantic chamber, symphonic music and opera. What you don't get elsewhere and stands out most are maybe the regular opportunities to attend concerts of medival, renaissance and early baroque music on a professional level and according to the most recent insights of research (appropriate instruments, diminutions etc.). I'd just look for a period of time where you find a couple of concerts that might interest you at once.

And yes, we have probably the biggest department of baroque improvisation there is! They have public "Studientage" every year which are also worth attending, if one has a bit of musical (practical and theoretical) knowledge.

[prémont]

And finally, here's my favourite suite, no. 18 in g:

Thanks for uploading these two suites. Both impressive and enjoyable.

[calyptorhynchus]

And finally, here's my favourite suite, no. 18 in g:

Hi Rappy, I enjoyed your playing of both these suites, as good as any I have heard!

[Mandryka]

In Richard Egarr's essay on Froberger for his CDs, he talks about how the suites were influenced by lute music.  In connexion with this he mentions someone called Borrell, who Froberger knew in Stuttgart. Who is this Borrell?

[Mandryka]

Essay by Terence Charlston

https://researchonline.rcm.ac.uk/id/eprint/94/1/article_FINAL_RCM.pdf

[rappy]

In case you're interested, here's another recording of the 10th suite in a (from the Libro Quarto):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbCqGojAlaE&feature=youtu.be