Compositions with purely (or largely) indefinite pitch

[James]

However, if he were to listen to Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2 and John Cage's Music of Changes side by side, the sound of the music would be very similar.

Not to my ears. One piece completely exhibits a musician who is in control of what he is doing.

[James]

Not really.  Because I am able to articulate the conception behind 4'33"

"The conception" as you call it is supposedly "imagined" by you, hence extra-musical stuff you're reading into the situation. You never really look square at what is really there - essentially a blank score, a non performance. That can be perceived in a number of ways, many of them, most of them .. nothing at all what you "imagine".

[James]

David Tudor is in control of what he is doing.  But what does that have to do with the sound of the music?

I'm talking about the musician that pulls the strings, the composer. One piece clearly illustrates a musician (composer) who really hears and has control of what he writes.

[James]

What is really there is ambient sound.  The environment is the performer and the performance are the sounds that occur during that four and half minute period.  The so-called "empty" score is merely the vessel Cage devised in order to structure the period for the work to happen.

Has it never occurred to you that for every composition, the score is not the music?

No, even with this post, you're still telling us it's supposed to be about ambient sound and all these thing etc. Big difference.

[James]

music is sounds and silence - not the process that produced them.

This is a rather primitive way of looking at things. Music is rhythm, melody, harmony, timbre, texture, form, notation etc.

[ahinton]

Well, that is true I am telling you what the work is about because we are having a discussion about 4'33".  However, if I were at a performance of 4'33" I would be listening to the sounds not telling myself that the work is the ambient sounds.

But what difference would that make? You could have listened to those sounds without the "intervention" of a performer, a score, a piano and the rest and, consequently, without Cage having any requirement to give you the opportunity to do so. If the ambient sounds that make up a "performance" of 4'33" constitute a piece of music (albeit not composed or improvised), that piece of music would have existed without anyone's intervention.

Likewise, suppose that all audible ambient sounds were to be removed from such an experience by everyone present being as silent as possible, would you regard that as wilfully seeking to defeat the object of such a "performance"?

[James]

This idea of the necessity of the composer's intention being crucial, I think is not important.  We appreciate the beauty of nature everyday, or at least the beauty of nature is there for anyone to enjoy (whether we stop and notice it is up to us).  There is no artist, no composer - just the sights and sounds of a sunset, or ocean, or the forest sounds.

Cage was attempting to capture this idea with his work.

I fish & hunt, spent a lot of time in the outdoors in my day, lots .. still do, and have a degree in Aquaculture to boot. I understand the beauty of Nature. Back to music ..

Cage is just a name. I care more about the musical result, getting under the hood is useful too, seeing what's there, how the working parts operate together & relate, especially helpful if your a learning player/musician - the result is the real litmus test of an artist's mettle.

[ahinton]

In Cage's case, his entire career was built around removing himself, i.e. the composer, from the process and allowing music to occur through other means.

For that to be true (which patently it isn't because this is the only Cage piece that functions as it does), none of Cage's pieces would contain any non-ambient and uncomposed/unimprovised sounds; Cage doesn't distance himself from what he has done in any other instance because most of his music comes into audible being as a consequence of musicians performking it, just as in the case with almost all music.

Once again, I reiterate the idea that music is sounds and silence - not the process that produced them.

Whilst music is indeed just that, the "process/es"that produce the sounds customarily involve musicians making those sounds and the silences (other than those between movements in a multi-movement work) are likewise determined by the composer by means of including rests, pauses and the like, so your statement here does not address the issue.

Whether Boulez used serial procedures to produce Structures, which removed him somewhat from the process

How did it do that and indeed how could it do that? Boulez determined those procedures, how he used them and what their results sounded like when performed by active musicians playing pianos!

Cage used chance operations - the important result in both cases are the musical sounds and silence that are produced when these works are performed.

Chance operations have been used by numerous composers to varying degrees in certain works - Lutosławski did so most notably - but the difference here, between performance of specifically notated passages and ones that offer more improvisatory freedom to the performer/s, is that the fully notated and the less than fully notated passages are all composed/improvised and, as in Beethoven, Mahler or most other composers, the sounds and silences therein are determined by the composer and the performer/s actually performing; in 4'33", the performer is instructed NOT to perform any notated composed music (because the piece contains none in any case) or to improvise any music - in other words, the instruction is not to make any sounds at all (other than the odd ambient ones). It is therefore untenable to regard pieces that do what 4'33" does with pieces that require the active participation of a performer or performers whether or not the music is fully composed/notated.
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[James]

Well, that is true I am telling you what the work is about because we are having a discussion about 4'33".  However, if I were at a performance of 4'33" I would be listening to the sounds not telling myself that the work is the ambient sounds.

And that's my point. This thing can't survive without an explanation. You're deeply indoctrinated. By dealing with what is there, most people would not have the slightest idea, or care much, be moved much. Most would be waiting patiently for the real music and performance to begin .. the symphony, concerto, opera, etc. Something that takes them away from the ordinary, daily stuff. Something thoughtful, composed & truly special.

[ahinton]

This idea of the necessity of the composer's intention being crucial, I think is not important.  We appreciate the beauty of nature everyday, or at least the beauty of nature is there for anyone to enjoy (whether we stop and notice it is up to us).  There is no artist, no composer - just the sights and sounds of a sunset, or ocean, or the forest sounds.

Cage was attempting to capture this idea with his work.

If indeed that was his intention, I believe that not only did he fail in its realisation but that it was also unnecessary because those sounds would be present in any case without his involvement. There's nothing wrong with "the sights and sounds of a sunset, or ocean, or the forest sounds" (except that a sunset itself makes no sound!) and I would be the last person on earth to deny or ignore the beauties of nature but, if (in a work such as 4'33") the "idea of the necessity of the composer's intention being crucial...is not important" as far as you are concerned, one might as well remove any sense of the involvement of a composer called Cage, the presence of a pianist and a piano and the very notion of attending a performance because there's no need for any of them, whereas stating that 4'33" is a piece of music that purportedly requires a piece of manuscript paper (albeit containing no notated symbols and mere "tacets"), a pianist and a piano wilfully elevates it to the status of a piece of music to be listened to, usually in a concert performance venue.

[ahinton]

This is a rather primitive way of looking at things. Music is rhythm, melody, harmony, timbre, texture, form, notation etc.

Well, not quite; substitute "made from" for "is" and you'd be closer to the truth and remove "notation" and you'd be nearer still by virtue of no longer excluding improvised, non-notated music.

[ahinton]

All true.  But as I said earlier the score to 4'33" was the vessel that structured a period of time, four and a half minutes, where an audience would be invited to listen to ambient sounds - collectively - as a performance at a specific location and time.  A unique collective experience.

This is the work.

I do not believe that. Why? Because an audience at a musical performance is not itself a "collective" but composed of individuals, all with their own individual listening experiences behind them and who will each listen to whatever the hear in different ways, just as with any other music; the only thing that's remotely "collective" about this is not the listening experience but the fact that the audience is all "collected" in the same place at the same time.

In any event, the audience could either be invited to do this without the purported involvement of a composer, pianist piano and the rest or indeed actually do it without requiring to be invited in the first place.

as in the case of all art, there is a structure about the process which has produced the experience.

The nearest to anything resembling a "structure" in the mounting of such an experience is the fact that a concert be advertised to be given in a particular place at a particular time and people come and get tickets to attend it; what kind of "structure", if any, is that?

Although it's a side issue, it might reasonably be argued that such an audience has a right to expect composers/improvisers/performers actually to do something active in presenting some music on such an occasion and that, as none is so presented, some attendees might wonder for what they'd spent their money on tickets (unless the performance was free).

[James]

Apparently you think you can speak for most people.  I do not think you can, and anyone going to a performance of 4'33" would probably understand what the performance was about.  Or they would read in the program what the performance was about, much like people do with any piece of music at a concert in order to enhance their enjoyment of it.

Those program notes do not negate the experience of the music.

No one is just going to a performance of this thing itself, or would make the trip, especially on a paid ticket. And regarding me speaking for most people, if you take that angle, than your are just as guilty of the same thing, saying that everyone is going to just know that it's about x,y & z. Other than on program notes which is collection of words, extra-musical material, explaining what it is supposed to be about bringing us back to my blank canvas analogy.

[James]

Well, not quite; substitute "made from" for "is" and you'd be closer to the truth and remove "notation" and you'd be nearer still by virtue of no longer excluding improvised, non-notated music.

Notation, or written music is a large part of what music and music making is, it conveys all these things i'm talking about in written form, with often a higher degree of consciousness and thought .. especially as it relates to this forum which is largely based on a written notational tradition of music making & performance.

[James]

Of course people go to concerts for the purpsoe or hearing the works being presented.

My point is no one would go for just 4'33", especially on a paid ticket. It'd be a box office bomb.

[James]

Notated music is one form of conveying music; there are other methods - oral transmisison for example, which is how much vernacular music is conveyed.  However any musician will tell you that the score only approximates the intention of the composer.

Notation is a major way, and a way that has been around for centuries - and the crux of the music being discussed on this forum.The music itself is precisely notated & thought out by the musician who deals with harmony, melody, rhythm, arrangement, sound color, inner relationships, thematic development, dynamics etc. Writing music has it's benefits and merits. More time & thought can go into the music and its construction, details & performance. Things can be more complicated and more tightly wrought as well. Things can be re-written, or edited to make it easier to perform etc. It would be hard to imagine musicians just verbally coming up with many of the great masterworks of classical music, or merely improvising them.

[James]

All you can accurately say is that you would not pay to hear 4'33".

It's safe to assume that most people wouldn't, and if they did - they would be underwhelmed musically, even feel being ripped off or cheated .. witnessing a performer just sit there in front of a rather blank empty score doing nothing. That ain't magical on paper, or in the flesh. Let's be real, please.

[James]

Yes, let's be real.  It is a fact that the work is performed, recorded, and people go and purchase tickets and the recordings.

Recorded? Another bankrupt idea. I'd like to meet the person who would buy that.

And it's never the draw, in performance or as music, especially by itself.

The fact is you don't find anything of value in 4'33" - and you wish to validate your opinion by hypothetically invoking "most people".  An allegation you cannot support with anything other than your own statement.  And since when is the behavior of "most people" a deciding factor about what is valuable.  We've already agreed that "most people" do not listen to Classical music.  Is that fact an important indicator of the value of Classical music?

Like I've said before, it's really a non-factor for all of the music and musicians that I truly love. It was time & place when this sort of silly thing occurred. It is nothing to be taken seriously. And even, with regular folks, most would rather listen to a 4 minute pop tune than 4 of regular daily noises. I'm sure I'd win that bet.

[James]

So say you.

Again, I'm fairly confident that most or all people would not buy or care about a document of this ..

[James]

"Then let that silly notion bring [you] cheer" - George Jones, She Thinks I Still Care

They'd be better off buying blank cds, at least those are useable..