Do you think too much pop/rock music can be a waste of time?

[Karl Henning]

EDIT: And actually, as the saying goes: if you´re not a heavy metal fan at 20 etc. 

ARRGGH! I was not! 

[Madiel]

You probably mean 19th century Prussia, or Prussia-influenced German states. When Bach's revival began there was no Germany. Austria, the largest and most culturally rich of the German states, actually remained alien, and often hostile, to Prussian "cultural values" for a very long time. (Okay, this is nitpicking, I know).

Anyway, dozens of Bach's contemporaries "aligned" with those values yet it was Bach that was singled out. I doubt that this has nothing to do with the intrinsic quality of his music.

*shrug* Maybe I do. Personally I don't think that the lack of a political unit called "Germany" prevents people from thinking about things being "German". Clearly you don't either as you just described Austria as a German state. So yeah I think you're nitpicking. Where Mendelssohn was.

I don't think I was suggesting it had nothing to do with the qualities of his music, or even the quality. But again, I have to ask which measure you're using. As music to dance to, the St Matthew Passion sucks. To the extent that you're saying that Bach does the things he's trying to do exceedingly well, I agree with you, but the point is that there were times in history where those goals were widely admired goals, and there were times in history when those goals were not widely admired.

Bach's music didn't change between 1750 and the 1820s, people's attitudes did.

[Florestan]

Personally I don't think that the lack of a political unit called "Germany" prevents people from thinking about things being "German". Clearly you don't either as you just described Austria as a German state.

Depends what you mean by things being German. Yes, Austria was a German state insofar as they were of (mostly) Germanic stock, spoke German and even competed with Prussia for the hegemony over the other German states. The same applies to Prussia. Yet for all these similarities, when it comes to '''cultural values' the two were worlds apart. So, nitpicking but not too much.

I don't think I was suggesting it had nothing to do with the qualities of his music, or even the quality. But again, I have to ask which measure you're using. As music to dance to, the St Matthew Passion sucks. To the extent that you're saying that Bach does the things he's trying to do exceedingly well, I agree with you, but the point is that there were times in history where those goals were widely admired goals, and there were times in history when those goals were not widely admired.

Bach's music didn't change between 1750 and the 1820s, people's attitudes did.

Not you personally, but that's what I inferred from how you summarized that article.

Well, let's take Bach's "German values": stern Lutheranism, hard work ethics, orderly life, solid "bourgeois" family values, promotion of German music, whatever. If I understand the article's point correctly, all these were firmly in place in 1829 when Mendelssohn conducted Matthaeus-Passion, and it is exactly because of them that the reception was enthusiastic and the subsequent Bach cult developed. But the problem is that those values have been in place, and officially promoted, just as firmly between 1750 and 1820. And this is connected with the distinction I made above between Prussia and Austria. Catholic, cosmopolitan Austria always had a more relaxed, more sensuous and more mundane way of life and, implicitly, a similar esthetics. Prussia, on the contrary, was always on the side of "law, order, hard work and strict morals". According to the article's own correlation, Bach should have never been neglected in Prussia. Yet he was, for almost a century. The explanation for his revival, IMO, lies much less with a revival of the values he stood for --- they were never repudiated or abandoned ---but with the revival of the national pride, badly hurt and humiliated by Napoleon. Prussia, emerging from the Congress of Vienna as a major European power, both politically and militarily, had to assert itself as a major cultural force as well, and what better way to do that than by music, a German speciality since times immemorial. Handel was too Italianate and Anglicized to serve the purpose while Mozart and Haydn were already  cultural icons of Austria, besides being --- horribile dictu - Catholics. That left only one choice available, and that was Bach, not least because he was neglected but not forgotten. His sons, Mozart, Beethoven --- all were aware of his heritage and were influenced by him one way or another. His music was not played anymore because back then it was implicitly understood and accepted that new music supplant old music and there was not much fuss or kerfuffle about it --- but it doesn't mean that it was not known of, circulated and studied in top musical circles.

The topic is vast but I think that attributing Bach's revival to a mere revival in the 1820s of the "German values" that had allegedly been abandoned after 1750 is not historically accurate, or better said not geographically accurate.

Maybe Jo, as a German, could bring supplementary lights on the issue.

[Madiel]

Why isn't national pride a value in your list? Why did you treat it separately?

Without having the text to hand I think you've actually hit on a substantial part of what I read - Bach as a "true German" composer. But then why do you not see that as itself a value that was present at that time? Placing great importance on his "German" nature?

Nationalism is a cultural value too, and it waxes and wanes. We've all seen it. You certainly see it in Europe. There are times when people have a strong patriotic bias and other times when that is considerably weakened.

I have no trouble with any of what you said on that. I just don't see that it contradicts what I said.

[Florestan]

Why isn't national pride a value in your list? Why did you treat it separately?

Because it is not a specifical "German (Prussian) value". National pride was just as strong in Austria (actually, there it was more an "imperial" than a "national" pride), France and England, for instance.

I have no trouble with any of what you said on that. I just don't see that it contradicts what I said.

From how you summarized the article I inferred that it claims that (1) Bach's neglect was the effect of the values he stood for being abandoned after his death, and (2) his revival was the effect of those values being reinstated in the 1820s. I think this is not true, or at least grossly simplified. If this is not what the article claims, then I must have misunderstood your summary.

[71 dB]

I like some rather unsubstantial stuff, but I hope I don't have illusions that it is the crap of genius. I don't see any problem at all in enjoying inferior stuff. We need that side in our lives as well.

I completely agree with the bolded part, but I want to say the measuring sticks of superiority and inferiority are chosen by us. If you like J. S. Bach, you want to use a stick that puts Bach above everything else. However, if the stick is optimized for say Katy Perry, Bach will fail miserably. The answer is to use the correct stick with each peace of music. I don't search for counterpuntal genius in Katy Perry or studio production perfectionism or pop hooks in Bach. That's how I can appreciate and enjoy both.

[Madiel]

Because it is not a specifical "German (Prussian) value". National pride was just as strong in Austria (actually, there it was more an "imperial" than a "national" pride), France and England, for instance.

Well that isn't what I meant by "German values". It's unlikely that many values held in Germany are wholly unique to Germany. I meant values widely held in Germany at the time. In fact my actual words were "the cultural values of 19th century Germany". It was you who came up with the phrase "German values" and you seem to have converted this into "values that are inherently German". And permanently German at that.

Which doesn't equate with what I said. What was that bit about knocking down straw men?

The entire point of this discussion is that values are not fixed which is why estimation of any particular music is not fixed.

[Karl Henning]

. . . However, if the stick is optimized for say Katy Perry, Bach will fail miserably.

For the sake of discussion:  why, exactly?

[Florestan]

Well that isn't what I meant by "German values". It's unlikely that many values held in Germany are wholly unique to Germany. I meant values widely held in Germany at the time. In fact my actual words were "the cultural values of 19th century Germany". It was you who came up with the phrase "German values"

Use whatever you wish. In my book both formulations express the same thing, and both are equally inaccurate.

and you seem to have converted into "values that are inherently German".

That stretch is yours entirely, I''m afraid. AFAIC there are no values that are inherently German (or whatever other nation's, for that matter). Take the 1820s: a Prussian German was not born Lutheran, hard-working and "law-and-order-y" any more than an Austrian German was born Catholic, relaxed and not-quite-fond-of-too-much-order. Whatever values a society holds dear at a certain historical point, or during whole historical periods, they are shaped by, and shape in their turn, the history, religion, culture and politics of that society.

The entire point of this discussion is that values are not fixed

With respect to esthetic (and also moral) values, this is a debatable --- and hotly debated --- proposition ever since Antiquity. 

[Madiel]

For the sake of discussion:  why, exactly?

He had no idea how to use reverb.

[Madiel]

Use whatever you wish. In my book both formulations express the same thing, and both are equally inaccurate.

They do not express the same thing at all. I feel perfectly happy agreeing with you that heightened nationalism was something present in 19th century Germany that contributed to the Bach revival.

I care not one jot whether it fits in your invented category of "German values" (which you now tell me is an empty set, there being no genuinely German values DESPITE THE DISCUSSION YOU HAD ABOUT BACH'S GERMAN VALUES FOR GOD'S SAKE!) and don't care whether you succeed in your attempt to defeat an argument about the causes of the Bach revival that doesn't reflect what I said. I said something about the culture values present in 19th century Germany. You've identified an ingredient of that culture: heightened nationalism.

You're manufacturing a disagreement that doesn't exist. You're going so far as to negate your OWN discussion to do it, and I can't think why other than your habitual bellligerence. Knock it off.

[Madiel]

Well, let's take Bach's "German values": stern Lutheranism, hard work ethics, orderly life, solid "bourgeois" family values, promotion of German music, whatever.

I mean, pardon my language, but what the FUCK is this about? You invent the phrase "German values", you supply a list, you then spend time arguing these weren't the reasons for the Bach revival, and now a couple of pages later you're trying to tell me there are in fact no such thing as "German values" WHEN YOU'RE THE ONE WHO CAME UP WITH THAT EXPRESSION IN THE FIRST PLACE. When I asked you why you left nationalism off the list, you said you left it out BECAUSE IT WASN'T INHERENTLY GERMAN. Now you're trying to say that the things you DID include in the list WEREN'T INHERENTLY GERMAN EITHER.

Lord God Almighty, how about we lock you in a room on your own so you can take both sides of an argument against yourself until you manage to wear yourself out? I'm sure you'll have fun and the rest of us can get some peace in the meantime.

[Florestan]

They do not express the same thing at all. I feel perfectly happy agreeing with you that heightened nationalism was something present in 19th century Germany that contributed to the Bach revival.

I care not one jot whether it fits in your invented category of "German values" (which you now tell me is an empty set, there being no genuinely German values DESPITE THE DISCUSSION YOU HAD ABOUT BACH'S GERMAN VALUES FOR GOD'S SAKE!) and don't care whether you succeed in your attempt to defeat an argument about the causes of the Bach revival that doesn't reflect what I said. I said something about the culture values present in 19th century Germany. You've identified an ingredient of that culture: heightened nationalism. You're manufacturing a disagreement that doesn't exist.

The fact that "German values" do not exist as such does not, and did not, preclude German officials at various times in history to claim that this or that set of values is indeed, and inherently, "German". It is in this last incarnation that I used the term.

Actually, wouldn't it be better if you link that darn article? This way we'd avoid splitting semantic hairs and see what is really claimed and how it is argued.

[Karl Henning]

He had no idea how to use reverb.

Considering that the space is part of the instrument with the organ, I am inclined to disagree.  I think the evidence may be that his use of reverb was more expert than Katy Perry's 

[Madiel]

Considering that the space is part of the instrument with the organ, I am inclined to disagree.  I think the evidence may be that his use of reverb was more expert than Katy Perry's 

Touche!

[Florestan]

I mean, pardon my language, but what the FUCK is this about? You invent the phrase "German values", you supply a list, you then spend time arguing these weren't the reasons for the Bach revival, and now a couple of pages later you're trying to tell me there are in fact no such thing as "German values" WHEN YOU'RE THE ONE WHO CAME UP WITH THAT EXPRESSION IN THE FIRST PLACE. When I asked you why you left nationalism off the list, you said you left it out BECAUSE IT WASN'T INHERENTLY GERMAN. Now you're trying to say that the things you DID include in the list WEREN'T INHERENTLY GERMAN EITHER.

Lord God Almighty, how about we lock you in a room on your own so you can take both sides of an argument against yourself until you manage to wear yourself out? I'm sure you'll have fun and the rest of us can get some peace in the meantime.

Get a cool shower, pal, and quickly, otherwise you will burn yourself with all this heat you're radiating through nose and ears.

One last time:

(1) There is the whole difference in the world between "German values" (which is how I wrote it all along) and German values.

(2) The fact that "German values" do not exist as such does not, and did not, preclude German officials at various times in history to claim that this or that set of values is indeed, and inherently, "German". It is in this last incarnation that I used the term.

Over and out.

[Florestan]

Considering that the space is part of the instrument with the organ, I am inclined to disagree.  I think the evidence may be that his use of reverb was more expert than Katy Perry's 

Surgically done, sir!

[North Star]

Considering that the space is part of the instrument with the organ, I am inclined to disagree.  I think the evidence may be that his use of reverb was more expert than Katy Perry's 

Not to mention the use of the double chorus in St Matthew Passion.

[Madiel]

Actually, wouldn't it be better if you link that darn article? This way we'd avoid splitting semantic hairs and see what is really claimed and how it is argued.

What? You can't even manage to keep straight WHAT I'M SAYING! What the hell difference does it make whether my words are based on something I've read or on something I made up myself?

It's got absolutely nothing to do with splitting semantic hairs over something you haven't seen. Every single criticism of you I've just made is 100% based on the words that every single person can read on this thread. It's now based entirely on YOUR OWN words, and the fact that you have said things that completely contradictory with other things you've said.

Which is exactly what happens every damn time you get into this argumentative mode. In a few days you'll send me a private message of apology, tell me you were drinking or something... I don't care. I'm going to bed, I have an enormous amount of other shit to deal with right now without wasting any more energy on the bizarre conversations to be found on this forum either because people are just plain lunatics (not you) or because they are the kind of people who simply cannot concede any points in a conversation and meet other people halfway (very much you).

I really don't give a fuck now what you think, because you will change what you think just for the sake of getting in my face because I dare not agree with you that there's some fundamental hierarchy of musical genres. Go listen to whatever the fuck you want, as that was the point anyway, and I hope that you will do the rest of the world the courtesy of letting them listen to whatever the fuck they want.

Out.

[Madiel]

(1) There is the whole difference in the world between "German values" (which is how I wrote it all along) and German values.

Oh I see. So when I use completely different words to the words you use, it makes no difference to the meaning at all. But when you add fucking quote marks to it makes "the whole difference in the world".

What an incredible wanker you can be.