Hello everyone!

[Mr. Minnow]

Came across this forum a while back, finally got round to joining!

I was introduced to classical music by a friend at university many moons ago. I spent a number of years covering the Baroque through to contemporary music. In more recent years I started to wonder what was around prior to the Baroque. I've been an early music nut ever since. Also into plenty of non-classical, from some prog and psych to the likes of Nurse With Wound and Japanese Noise.

I've just started investigating Charles Ives, starting with his 1st symphony (the Hyperion recording). Very enjoyable, but I must confess to being baffled by the booklet notes stating that the finale closes with a parade of themes from the whole symphony. I have no formal musical training and therefore have only a very limited knowledge of music theory, but the booklet makes it sound as though themes from the three previous movements not only recur, but are clearly recognisable. If anyone can point out where the themes recur in the finale's closing stages I'd be really grateful!     

[bhodges]

Greetings, Mr. Minnow (any relation to the Incredible Mr. Limpet?  ) and welcome.

There are many Ives fans here -- including me -- and I suspect someone may be able to answer your question quickly. (I don't have the recording handy.) In addition to his symphonies, there are lots of other great Ives works to explore, including his chamber music and (especially) songs -- 114 little gems.

In any case, have a good time here.

--Bruce

[Mr. Minnow]

Greetings, Mr. Minnow (any relation to the Incredible Mr. Limpet?  ) and welcome.

There are many Ives fans here -- including me -- and I suspect someone may be able to answer your question quickly. (I don't have the recording handy.) In addition to his symphonies, there are lots of other great Ives works to explore, including his chamber music and (especially) songs -- 114 little gems.

In any case, have a good time here.

--Bruce

Thanks Bruce! I found the Ives thread and posted my question there. Hopefully someone can help.

I'm sure I'll investigate Ives' chamber music when my (sadly rather limited) budget permits. For the moment I have the two Hyperion discs of the symphonies, which should hopefully be a good introduction to his music. I've read that his later work is very different to the 1st symphony, but no matter, I like the 1st very much.

[Mirror Image]

Welcome aboard, Mr. Minnow! Good to see you're exploring Ives' music. He's certainly one of my musical heroes. Concerning your question about his Symphony No. 1, I say keep listening. You'll be able to notice the recurring themes in no time.

[Mr. Minnow]

Welcome aboard, Mr. Minnow! Good to see you're exploring Ives' music. He's certainly one of my musical heroes. Concerning your question about his Symphony No. 1, I say keep listening. You'll be able to notice the recurring themes in no time.

I thought the recurring themes would become clear, but I've listened to the whole symphony about half a dozen times and I'm still not hearing them. I know that when a theme recurs in a heavily modified form it can easily be missed, but the way the booklet notes are worded leads me to think that the themes in this symphony's finale recur in a form which is close to their original appearance. Maybe I'm wrong about that though?

[Mirror Image]

I thought the recurring themes would become clear, but I've listened to the whole symphony about half a dozen times and I'm still not hearing them. I know that when a theme recurs in a heavily modified form it can easily be missed, but the way the booklet notes are worded leads me to think that the themes in this symphony's finale recur in a form which is close to their original appearance. Maybe I'm wrong about that though?

I'm definitely going to be giving Ives' 1st a listen, so I can try to hear those recurring themes, but I have only about a years worth of music training, so I might not be much help. I'll let someone who has a proper music education analyze the music and give insight into the technical aspects of the symphony, do the work. I would not try to get hung up on Ives' 1st, though, because IMHO it's not one of his best works and in a sense it is hardly representative of what the composer would become. I look at this particular first symphony as an homage to his teacher at Yale, Horatio Parker.

[aligreto]

Welcome aboard and I look forward to reading copious posts from you in the Early Music thread 

[Hollywood]

Howdy Mr. Minnow. Greetings from Vienna, Austria. Welcome to the forum.

[Mahlerian]

Came across this forum a while back, finally got round to joining!

I was introduced to classical music by a friend at university many moons ago. I spent a number of years covering the Baroque through to contemporary music. In more recent years I started to wonder what was around prior to the Baroque. I've been an early music nut ever since. Also into plenty of non-classical, from some prog and psych to the likes of Nurse With Wound and Japanese Noise.

I've just started investigating Charles Ives, starting with his 1st symphony (the Hyperion recording). Very enjoyable, but I must confess to being baffled by the booklet notes stating that the finale closes with a parade of themes from the whole symphony. I have no formal musical training and therefore have only a very limited knowledge of music theory, but the booklet makes it sound as though themes from the three previous movements not only recur, but are clearly recognisable. If anyone can point out where the themes recur in the finale's closing stages I'd be really grateful!     

Welcome to the forum.  Listening through the Ives First Symphony a few hours ago, I noticed the recurrence of a theme from the adagio that reminded me of Wagner's Parsifal at the end of the work.  I would have to familiarize myself more with the piece (it was probably the first time I'd heard it in several years, and I've probably only heard it a few times sporadically) to make more connections.

A good analysis can get one to hear things that would otherwise have remained inaudible or unnoticed, but just because you can't hear them doesn't mean there's a problem.  While some pieces are built on recognition of earlier themes or motifs, there are often a lot of connections that aren't going to be apparent until one becomes very familiar with a work, and it isn't necessary to recognize them to enjoy the piece.  You are enjoying Ives' First Symphony, so you shouldn't worry too much about whether or not you can hear something that notes tell you about.

[Mirror Image]

I couldn't agree more: if you enjoy a piece of music, then don't try to overanalyze it unless you're really hellbent on dissecting it.

[Mr. Minnow]

I certainly agree that it's not necessary to understand the nuts and bolts of how a piece is put together in order to enjoy it. I enjoy listening to a fugue, even though I know that distinguishing the various subjects and countersubjects, and spotting when they recur in very different forms from their original appearances, is something for which you'd probably need very considerable musical training in order to have a snowball's chance in hell of managing it, particularly in such a dense and complex contrapuntal texture. Yet it's that density and complexity I like.

I only get annoyed when the notes describe a feature of a piece which I think that even I, with my very limited technical knowledge, ought to be able to spot. This seems like such an instance, though it's possible that the recurrence of the themes at the end of this symphony's finale is not as obvious as I've assumed. 

[Karl Henning]

... This seems like such an instance, though it's possible that the recurrence of the themes at the end of this symphony's finale is not as obvious as I've assumed. 

That's it, exactly. Here it is not after the more traditional manner of recapitulation in the symphony. Ives' collage technique is more like everything mashed together in a glorious chaos.

[Mirror Image]

I certainly agree that it's not necessary to understand the nuts and bolts of how a piece is put together in order to enjoy it. I enjoy listening to a fugue, even though I know that distinguishing the various subjects and countersubjects, and spotting when they recur in very different forms from their original appearances, is something for which you'd probably need very considerable musical training in order to have a snowball's chance in hell of managing it, particularly in such a dense and complex contrapuntal texture. Yet it's that density and complexity I like.

I only get annoyed when the notes describe a feature of a piece which I think that even I, with my very limited technical knowledge, ought to be able to spot. This seems like such an instance, though it's possible that the recurrence of the themes at the end of this symphony's finale is not as obvious as I've assumed.

Unless the notes are written by the composer or they're in some kind of layman's terms, I usually don't read liner notes as when a commentator starts getting too technical, I become like a deer in the headlights. I can only trust my ear and what I get from the music. So, put the notes down and enjoy the music and draw your own conclusions. Happy listening, Mr. Minnow!

[mc ukrneal]

I certainly agree that it's not necessary to understand the nuts and bolts of how a piece is put together in order to enjoy it. I enjoy listening to a fugue, even though I know that distinguishing the various subjects and countersubjects, and spotting when they recur in very different forms from their original appearances, is something for which you'd probably need very considerable musical training in order to have a snowball's chance in hell of managing it, particularly in such a dense and complex contrapuntal texture. Yet it's that density and complexity I like.

I only get annoyed when the notes describe a feature of a piece which I think that even I, with my very limited technical knowledge, ought to be able to spot. This seems like such an instance, though it's possible that the recurrence of the themes at the end of this symphony's finale is not as obvious as I've assumed. 

Welcome! I love Ives, but Ives can be a challenge. Karl has summarized it nicely.