Where have the Great Composers gone?

[Florestan]

Is the Great Dane a traditionalist or a modernist? 
(for those unaware the Great Dane is the owner of that forum)

Blimey, reading the first sentence I thought you were refering to Nielsen. 

[DaveF]

"Twentieth-century music is like pedophilia. No matter how persuasively and persistently its champions urge their cause, it will never be accepted by the public at large, who will continue to regard it with incomprehension, outrage and repugnance."

--Kingsley Amis

Hm.  Quoting Kingsley Amis on the subject of music seems a bit like quoting Ernst Röhm on the subject of non-violent protest - almost no knowledge of it, and what he did believe was probably wrong.  As far as I remember from reading the Collected Letters (Amis's, not Röhm's), he only really liked trad jazz.  In fact, the list of his dislikes in all fields got longer and longer as he aged (part of what makes the Letters so hugely entertaining) and encompassed, in literature for example, Pound, Lowell, Dickinson, Dylan Thomas, R.S. Thomas, Martin Amis, Salman Rushdie, Borges... in fact nearly all of 20th-century literature apart from his pal Philip Larkin.

And who are these champions of paedophilia??

[Florestan]

Quoting Kingsley Amis on the subject of music seems a bit like quoting Ernst Röhm on the subject of non-violent protest

Thanks for a good laugh. 

[San Antone]

I often encounter this statement but never are any examples offered or discussed. So, with the best intentions, in all earnest and really interested in learning, I ask: what Schoenberg work is very similar to what Brahms work and what are the similarities?

Or, you could check out these recordings:



Brahms: Fantasies, Op. 116; (19) Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Handel, Op. 24 / Schoenberg: Suite fur Klavier Op. 25; (6) Kleine Klavierstucke, Op. 19
Shai Wosner



Sarah Rothenberg

[Karl Henning]

Or, you could check out this recording:



Brahms: Fantasies, Op. 116; (19) Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Handel, Op. 24 / Schoenberg: Suite fur Klavier Op. 25; (6) Kleine Klavierstucke, Op. 19
Shai Wosner

Cool.

[Florestan]

Or, you could check out this recording:



Brahms: Fantasies, Op. 116; (19) Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Handel, Op. 24 / Schoenberg: Suite fur Klavier Op. 25; (6) Kleine Klavierstucke, Op. 19
Shai Wosner

Thanks for the tip. I suspected it might be the piano music. 

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for the tip. I suspected it might be the piano music. 

Well, if you are patient (as I know you to be) I think some chamber works illustrate the commonalities equally nicely.

[Florestan]

Well, if you are patient (as I know you to be) I think some chamber works illustrate the commonalities equally nicely.

Which ones? I am only (vaguely) familiar with Verklaerte Nacht.

[Karl Henning]

Which ones? I am only (vaguely) familiar with Verklaerte Nacht.

Well, I want to consider the question better when at home after work (hence the invocation of patience )

[Florestan]

Well, I want to consider the question better when at home after work (hence the invocation of patience )

Take all the time you need. 

[San Antone]

Which ones? I am only (vaguely) familiar with Verklaerte Nacht.

Because of the texture the Brahms String Sextet and Verklarte Nacht are similar.  But I think more than just the sound of the music, which is not really that obvious, it is their method of composing which they share.  Schoenberg described it as "endless variation", i.e. taking a small motive and working and re-working it in endless variations and creating a large work from a small motivic cell.  Brahm's 4th Symphony is almost entirely created out of the  interval of a third (the beginning: B-G; E-C; A-F#; D#-B, etc.).

[Cato]

Blimey, reading the first sentence I thought you were refering to Nielsen. 

That was my first thought! 

I often encounter this statement but never are any examples offered or discussed. So, with the best intentions, in all earnest and really interested in learning, I ask: what Schoenberg work is very similar to what Brahms work and what are the similarities?

There is a reason why the performers of the piano music on the albums listed above have linked those works.

Georg Solti once stated that one of the last unclimbed mountains in his career was Schoenberg's opera Moses und Aron.

When he at last had the opportunity to conduct the work, he discovered in early rehearsals that he was not getting the results he wanted for some reason.  Then a solution struck him: he told the orchestra to play their parts as if they were playing Brahms.

And fairly quickly the musical performance improved!  Now that probably seems fairly mysterious, since obviously the notes did not change at all, nor anything else in the score.  Yet somehow that advice changed their approach in (What?) vibrato, legato, attack, etc. Somehow it changed the musical result for the better, at least as far as Solti was concerned.

[Ken B]

As I've said, maybe in this thread or maybe it was in different thread, but I think it is futile verging on impossible to establish objective criteria in order to judge the worth of "anyone's music".  For me, the only determinant for selecting which musical works are great is over time: certain works will resonate with audiences across periods and generations more than other works.  Call it a universal quality that is in the music.  But, individually, imo, we respond to music subjectively.  We all have our favorite works/composers. 

There is nothing wrong with disliking Schoenberg, or any composer.  But to go from there to deciding that because you don't like it, then the music must be bad.

I actually broadly agree with this. But it's less clear cut than the original statement. Anyway, just wanting to see what the range of your relativism is. SOme people state things that imply nihilism, but never seem to take that step.

[Mahlerian]

Because of the texture the Brahms String Sextet and Verklarte Nacht are similar.  But I think more than just the sound of the music, which is not really that obvious, it is their method of composing which they share.  Schoenberg described it as "endless variation", i.e. taking a small motive and working and re-working it in endless variations and creating a large work from a small motivic cell.  Brahm's 4th Symphony is almost entirely created out of the  interval of a third (the beginning: B-G; E-C; A-F#; D#-B, etc.).

That would be "developing variation," which he considered the prime hallmark of the Germanic tradition in general since the classical era.  Put simply, it just means that process of taking an idea and allowing it to change over the course of a piece.  Where Schoenberg differs from previous tradition is in, like Brahms and Mahler before him, avoiding literal repetition almost obsessively and making development a constant and ongoing process from the beginning to the end of a work.  Verklarte Nacht is more popular than other early Schoenberg works, and less characteristic, simply because it is more overtly repetitive (still, a great piece and a beautiful one); Mahler's First and Second Symphonies may also be mentioned in that regard as more popular because more repetitive.

"Endless Melody," of course, was Wagner's name for his own techniques.

[San Antone]

That would be "developing variation," which he considered the prime hallmark of the Germanic tradition in general since the classical era.  Put simply, it just means that process of taking an idea and allowing it to change over the course of a piece.  Where Schoenberg differs from previous tradition is in, like Brahms and Mahler before him, avoiding literal repetition almost obsessively and making development a constant and ongoing process from the beginning to the end of a work.  Verklarte Nacht is more popular than other early Schoenberg works, and less characteristic, simply because it is more overtly repetitive (still, a great piece and a beautiful one); Mahler's First and Second Symphonies may also be mentioned in that regard as more popular because more repetitive.

"Endless Melody," of course, was Wagner's name for his own techniques.

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure of the phrase.

[Jo498]

Schoenbergs piano concerto is often mentioned as well. It does not quite sound like Brahms in the way Verklärte Nacht might sound like Wagner (or "Erwartung" like a horror version of the delirium scene in Tristan, 3rd act) but there are some similarities not only in development of motives (I am told) but also in the "autumnal" feeling. Schoenberg's early "0th" string quartet sounds like a mix of Dvorak and Brahms, his first numbered (still tonal) string quartet like "über-Brahms" + late Beethoven or so, somewhat similar to Reger. And of course the great chamber symphonies (still tonal, but on the borderline) seem like a mix of several late romantic strains in music.

Even stronger similarities in sound and mood I find between late Mahler (9th, 10th, darker parts of 6ths and 7th symphonies) and Berg's orchestral pieces op.6. One of these is a funeral march that sounds almost like a "sequel" to the famous funeral march sections in Mahler.

Or Webern's passacaglia op.1 comes from Brahms 4th symphony (and Bach, I guess, Webern also wrote a dissertation on Renaissance polyphony). These guys were really steeped in tradition and as far from iconoclasts as it gets. (As good Austrians they even revered Johann Strauss...)

Anyway, the main point is that there was this more or less continous development. The 2nd Viennese school is rather conservative for an early 20th century modernist movement. Just compare to Duchamps or Dada or lots of other visual arts, they are far more radical. Schoenberg and friends composed for the same instruments, often similar combinations of instruments, often rather "conventional" forms (there are exceptions, of course). They push borders in many ways, sure, but it is really quite far from a violent revolution.

So the Avantgarde might be "false heirs" to the tradition but they are heirs. Whereas it doesn't really make sense to claim that Bob Dylan or Radiohead are in a meaningful way linked to the techniques and traditions of classical music. They might be great musicians but they are not heirs of 19th century classical music.

[bhodges]

These types of remarks really concern me.

There are those who believe that believe tonal music is superior to all atonal music.

Then there are those that like atonal music is just as good as tonal music.

I have been involved in two forums where the tonal faction won the debate.

In the Amazon Classical Forum the atmosphere became so toxic that there was no activity in any threads concerning post-19th century music for about 18 months.  Over the past year the there has been some activity concerning modern music.

The latest forum that has been harmed by this debate is Talk Classical.  At one time about 20% of the threads were about post-19th century music.  In the past few weeks there has been activity in over 575 threads (I have been keeping track of the activity).  Only about 5% of the threads are currently about post-19th century music.  If one excludes the great tonalists like Sibelius or Shostakovich, it is only about 1%.  According to various polls that were started there, about 2/3 thirds of members like modern music as much as the music of the great masters of the 18th and 19th century.  Over the past twelve months the attacks by the traditionalist have become so toxic that many members have gotten frustrated and left.  Many have migrated to GMG.

So far I have been very impressed with GMG.

I sure hope that what happened at Amazon and Talk Classical does not happen here.

Following up and echoing Karl's reassuring remark, one of the things GMG encourages is openness to music of all styles and periods. And as has been said many times, there is a big difference between saying, for example, "I don't like the music of Elliott Carter" and "I think you're a moron for liking the music of Elliott Carter." The former comment is fine here; the latter is not.

As an aside to the Babbitt solo guitar piece (called Sheer Pluck, BTW, from 1984), I happen to know the guitarist, Dan Lippel, who is one of the most dedicated and hardworking musicians around -- a member of the International Contemporary Ensemble who performs regularly with other groups, and also runs his own recording label. Like most performers of new music, he does it because he loves it -- not for fame, and certainly not to get wealthy. So when he points me to something he thinks should be heard, I listen. And if I don't quite "get it" (and Babbitt was a tough nut for me to crack for many years), I figure the music will yield its revelations when the time is right.

And in the meantime, there is plenty of music to listen to -- too much, in fact, for any human being to hear in a single lifetime. I'm grateful for that pleasant frustration.

--Bruce

[Monsieur Croche]

Is the Great Dane a traditionalist or a modernist? 

To be clear, "The Great Dane" here is not a reference to Dieterich Buxtehude....

I wouldn't want to denigrate the terms traditionalist or modernist by saddling either with the onus of also meaning 'dreadful composer,' so perhaps a non-partisan neologism is what is needed? 

Oh, no... wait. 'Dreadful composer' covers it, pure and simple. ;-)


Woof woof. (I.e. Best regards.)
M. Croche

[Monsieur Croche]

Then, there's the fellow who thinks La mer is trash.

Hey, if you think one of the greatest symphonies of the entire body of the symphonic rep (yes, Virginia, La Mer is a symphony, regardless of what Claude called it) is trash, you need a selective trash separator to keep from pulling its equivalent, the Eroica, and many other symphonies along with it into the bin.

I've got me a selective trash separator, and some of the greatest rep is in my trash bin --  Wagner, Bruckner and Shostakovich (pretty much all of it) for example.  At least I am not fool enough to not recognize those as 'great composers,' even though I think their music 'trash.' lol.

I wouldn't be surprised that someone who does not care for Debussy also finds little or no love for Mozart.  Just sayin'.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.  Thankfully, music is such an indiscriminate whore for affection, it will go with anyone who loves it :-)

[James]

But, individually, imo, we respond to music subjectively. 

This isn't the case, especially for those within the field and connoisseurs. There are objective criteria that can be applied, and are applied in order to judge the quality & level of what's being done. We do not have to wait around forever to do this.