Where have the Great Composers gone?

[Karl Henning]

I agree that the Art expands;  I probably resist the idea of "advance" (which in brief is my quarrel with Boulez's "If your music does not advance the art in the approved manner, you are no use" activism).  And God save me from writing music which, well, it isn't good, but damn it, it's important.

[Sergeant Rock]

* The extreme, but only too logical, corollary of this is that the smaller the audience, the greatest the art, and the greatest art of all is that which has just one person admiring it: the artist himself.

If that's true, then I'm one of the world's greatest poets 

Sarge

[Cato]

Why wonder? Art is not for all, remember? Schoenberg dixit*.

* The extreme, but only too logical, corollary of this is that the smaller the audience, the greatest the art, and the greatest art of all is that which has just one person admiring it: the artist himself.

For me, as an American, I have always hoped that "the average person" and even the economically below-average person will in fact be able to contradict Schoenberg's dictum.  And I think that does happen, and has happened (in my own case    ), although to be sure it probably will never happen on a "mass" scale.  So, I believe that Great Composers are out there, and that the average person can discover them.

Florestan:  Precisely, which is why I have always resisted Schoenberg's idea.  Art is communication on some level, and communication within one's own being is not necessarily communication.  Even psychoanalysis needs the psychoanalyst to catalyze the patient into communicating with his unconscious.

[Florestan]

It doesn't seriously take people no effort to listen to Mahler's sprawling, interconnected, and contrapuntal symphonies.

I don´t know. The first Mahler I ever heard was the Third and I must have been 13 or 14. It was love at first sight and it still remains my favorite Mahler symphony. But I did not make, and never made ever since, the least effort to follow the "sprawling, interconnected, and contrapuntal" forms and structures of his symphonies --- of which anyway I had no idea whatsoever at the time. I just let myself enwrapped by, and wallow in, their soundworld. IMO, apart from a longer than normal attention span one doesn´t need in principle anything else in order to enjoy Mahler´s symphonies.

This expansion of aesthetics is what makes contemporary serious art music important and interesting. Its value is analogous to Andrew Wiles's proving Fermat's last theorem or Magnus Carlsen's chess games.

Math is an intellectual pursuit. Chess is a game. If the value of "contemporary serious art music" is analogous to their value, then is it the value of an intellectual game?

Without the advancement of the art and science of aesthetics (which again, don't make the music good or great per se, but make it important), temporary music's value is no more than, say, amateur rap music.

This is rather contradictory. Either music is good or bad per se, in which case the most up-to-date advancements of aesthetics cannot make it better or worse than it is; or music´s value is dependent on the advancements of aesthetics, in which case it is neither good nor bad until the latest advancements of aesthetics have pronounced on it.

Anyway, if I understand you correctly, one needs to be familiar with the latest researches in aesthetics in order to understand "contemporary serious art music" and appreciate its value. Is that right?

[Florestan]

If that's true, then I'm one of the world's greatest poets 

That´s not a big deal, really: so are millions out there. 

[San Antone]

Even the greatest composers, e.g. Beethoven or Bach, still only enjoy a fraction of the audience of most pop musicians.  I don't think Schoenberg's point can be ignored.  But, it is irrelevant.  The fact that most people do not have the wherewithal to devote their time and money to classical music does not invalidate the still sizable minority that does.

As far as composers who write music of an allegedly more difficult style for even the most fervid classical music fan - it is simply subjective and a matter of taste.  Some people have no trouble at all with listening to and enjoying "difficult" music but may be uninterested in Dvorak. 

[Cato]

As far as composers who write music of an allegedly more difficult style for even the most fervid classical music fan - it is simply subjective and a matter of taste.  Some people have no trouble at all with listening to and enjoying "difficult" music but may be uninterested in Dvorak. 

You remind me of a review of the symphonies of the (still sadly obscure) Norwegian composer Fartein Valen which I read long ago.  The reviewer confessed to complete bafflement as to what such difficult, and even inscrutable music could possibly express!

That was enough for me to order them immediately! 

And yes, I was delighted by the symphonies of Valen: difficult and inscrutable, yet delightful!

Check out just the opening 3 minutes of the First Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oi-zeoTezz4

[Ghost Sonata]

You remind me of a review of the symphonies of the (still sadly obscure) Norwegian composer Fartein Valen which I read long ago.  The reviewer confessed to complete bafflement as to what such difficult, and even inscrutable music could possibly express!

That was enough for me to order them immediately! 

And yes, I was delighted by the symphonies of Valen: difficult and inscrutable, yet delightful!

Thanks, Cato, I think I'm in love. (Glenn Gould was a big fan of Valen). 

[nathanb]

Hopefully the Great Composers and the Passable Thread Topics went to the same place so we can kill two birds with one stone when we find them, ya feel?

[Florestan]

I have never understood why people who have nothing to say on, and no interest in, a particular thread feel the need to post anyway, usually a sanctimonious comment.

[arpeggio]

Where have the Great Composers gone?

Macon, Georgia. 

[Karl Henning]

Where have the Great Composers gone?

Macon, Georgia. 

In the Lewis Grizzard book I've just finished, there was fleeting mention of a hockey club by the name of Macon Whoopee.


You're welcome.

[Mahlerian]

Why wonder? Art is not for all, remember? Schoenberg dixit*.

* The extreme, but only too logical, corollary of this is that the smaller the audience, the greatest the art, and the greatest art of all is that which has just one person admiring it: the artist himself.

Says who?

Illogical, you mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

[nathanb]

Edit: Futility is an unfortunate thing.

[Monsieur Croche]

Even the greatest composers, e.g. Beethoven or Bach, still only enjoy a fraction of the audience of most pop musicians.  I don't think Schoenberg's point can be ignored.  But, it is irrelevant.  The fact that most people do not have the wherewithal to devote their time and money to classical music does not invalidate the still sizable minority that does.

As far as composers who write music of an allegedly more difficult style for even the most fervid classical music fan - it is simply subjective and a matter of taste.  Some people have no trouble at all with listening to and enjoying "difficult" music but may be uninterested in Dvorak 

4.0 / A+ / 1+

And... a-yep, taste = an aesthetic, though some may be unconscious they have an aesthetic which is subjective and that guides them in their likes and dislikes, they've got one nonetheless.

You nailed it. 

Bravo!

[Cato]

Illogical, you mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

One wonders what Schoenberg might have said, if e.g. his Violin Concerto had become wildly popular! 

[Ken B]

I have no idea what Schoenberg dictum you mean. I only know it's wrong.

[Mahlerian]

One wonders what Schoenberg might have said, if e.g. his Violin Concerto had become wildly popular! 

He hoped all his life that this would be true.

Of course, one has only to look at the context to see that it wouldn't have changed his aphorism at all.  He is talking about popular art (Gershwin and Johann Strauss, eg), which he does consider art, and yet it is still not "for all."

[SharpEleventh]

No piece of art, "high art" or not, is literally for all.

[Mahlerian]

I have no idea what Schoenberg dictum you mean. I only know it's wrong.

Well, one can safely say that Beethoven, Mozart, and Brahms were not great composers, then.  If Schoenberg said it, it must be false.

Also that to write music today one absolutely must use the 12-tone method.  Schoenberg said it wasn't true, therefore it is.