Where have the Great Composers gone?

[San Antone]

Those genuinely relative (not sweepingly relativist) criteria re: originality, level of technical execution, how effectively successful a work is unto itself as well as in comparison to other works of its own time or in comparison to works of another era -- are paramount to any worthwhile discussion about any piece of music or in evaluating different works in a comparison.

I wonder why we listen to music, great or otherwise?  Is it to draw a "comparison to other works of its own time or in comparison to works of another era"?  I'd venture a guess that each of us has our own personal reason(s) as to why we listen and more particularly, why we choose to listen to classical music.  Listening to music is behavior quite different from a having discussion focusing on the comparison of works.   While I greatly enjoy the former activity, I have little interest in the latter.

I guess now is the time for me to exit this thread.

[Cato]

I wonder why we listen to music, great or otherwise?  Is it to draw a "comparison to other works of its own time or in comparison to works of another era"?  I'd venture a guess that each of us has our own personal reason(s) as to why we listen and more particularly, why we choose to listen to classical music.  Listening to music is behavior quite different from a having discussion focusing on the comparison of works.   While I greatly enjoy the former activity, I have little interest in the latter.

In my case, all I can tell you is that - at a very early - age my ears and mind were able to distinguish between the snippets of classical music I heard in classic cartoons and the Big Band songs my mother listened to (my father listened to one singer only: Teresa Brewer q.v.).   I loved CLASSICAL MUSIC without knowing it at the time.  Through various twists of Life I discovered early in grade school that libraries had records, and so either on my little kiddie record player with one little speaker, or on my mother's slightly larger one, I squeezed out as much sound and pleasure as I could from those library recordings.

Oddly, classical music in my childhood made me completely indifferent to "popular music" (Elvis and rock 'n' roll were just starting), which I - with very few exceptions - found uninteresting and in comparison to e.g. Bruckner, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, etc. very dull, possibly because the average pop song lasted 4 minutes or less.

Keep in mind that I am from a lower-middle-class background: my parents were not only baffled by my interest, and possibly also appalled, my mother was downright hostile toward it!  0:)

I suspect there was possibly some reverse snobbery involved.  My parents also went to their graves completely unaware that I had composed music, completely unaware that I had the ability to compose music! 

On the topic at hand: I recall believing - again at a fairly early age in grade school - that CLASSICAL MUSIC was on a higher, "greater" level than the tunes on the radio.  That did not keep me at an older age from appreciating the few things which did catch my ear from the Top 40 stations listened to by my sister, e.g. Sloop John B by the Beach Boys.

[Ken B]

  That did not keep me ... from appreciating ... Sloop John B by the Beach Boys.

You and I both Cato, you and I both.

....

....


Yes folks: Grandfather and me!

*cackle*

[Karl Henning]

[...] That did not keep me at an older age from appreciating the few things which did catch my ear from the Top 40 stations listened to by my sister, e.g. Sloop John B by the Beach Boys.

You and I both Cato, you and I both.

Well, and with Dr Lizardo/Lord Jn Whorfin's sly reference to the sloop, what's not to like?

[Cato]

That did not keep me at an older age from appreciating the few things which did catch my ear from the Top 40 stations listened to by my sister, e.g. Sloop John B by the Beach Boys.

You and I both Cato, you and I both.

....

....


Yes folks: Grandfather and me!

*cackle*

Well, and with Dr Lizardo/Lord Jn Whorfin's sly reference to the sloop, what's not to like?

For those unacquainted with the Beach Boys version of the song:

https://www.youtube.com/v/o_LdqKIQ5Uo

[Sergeant Rock]

For those unacquainted with the Beach Boys version of the song:

A great song, and performance of the song...whether James thinks so or not 

Sarge

[San Antone]

Big BB fan, here.  Back in 1965, when in grade school, I and some of my friends formed a conspiracy to keep calling the radio station and requesting "Help Me Rhonda" to help it reach #1 despite competition from the Beatles's "Ticket to Ride".  We succeeded.

[Sergeant Rock]

Big BB fan, here.  Back in 1965, when in grade school, I and some of my friends formed a conspiracy to keep calling the radio station and requesting "Help Me Rhonda" to help it reach #1 despite competition from the Beatles's "Ticket to Ride".  We succeeded.

Excellent! In high school I had a crush on a girl named Rhonda. Of course I loved the BB song.

Sarge

[Cato]

A great song, and performance of the song...whether James thinks so or not 

Sarge

Yes to both!  0:)

Big BB fan, here.  Back in 1965, when in grade school, I and some of my friends formed a conspiracy to keep calling the radio station and requesting "Help Me Rhonda" to help it reach #1 despite competition from the Beatles's "Ticket to Ride".  We succeeded.

Yay Team!

Rhonda - subjective opinion approaching, so one should go to one's "safe space," if a micro-aggression can be felt attacking one's nerves    - outdoes any Beatles song!

And speaking of nerves and micro-aggressions...

https://www.youtube.com/v/YrtS2_TfbeY

[Monsieur Croche]

Oddly, classical music in my childhood made me completely indifferent to "popular music" (Elvis and rock 'n' roll were just starting), which I - with very few exceptions - found uninteresting and in comparison to e.g. Bruckner, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, etc. very dull, possibly because the average pop song lasted 4 minutes or less.

I don't find that in any way peculiar, but I had a very similar experience of a very early exposure and 'classical' completely seizing my imagination and having me in its thrall; too, pop music held no interest, with the consequent additional inclusion of having little or no interest or response to those commercially written 20th century Christmas songs that are so much a part of the canon of the Great American Songbook. lol.

The addition of pop music in my life was in mid-late high school, when I started getting rides in the cars of my peers.  As you also found, some of it was / is just fine.

On the topic at hand: I recall believing - again at a fairly early age in grade school - that CLASSICAL MUSIC was on a higher, "greater" level than the tunes on the radio.  That did not keep me at an older age from appreciating the few things which did catch my ear from the Top 40 stations listened to by my sister, e.g. Sloop John B by the Beach Boys.

It would be more surprising with such a sensitive ear and the predicate of all that listening that you would not recognize a well-made and interesting pop song when it hit your ears. 
Is it Prokofiev? No.
Is it a good folk-pop ballad? Yeah ;-)

Nice personal and illustrative post.  Thanks.


Best regards.   

[Andante]

You used as comparison for difficult music "only liked by experts" a car that "car designers like but does not drive". A car has an obvious function, namely to be driven and transport goods and people on certain types of roads. So a car that does not drive is obviously faulty.
Music often does not have such a function so one cannot simply claim that some music is "faulty" in the sense such a nonfunctional car would be.

You might say music has the function to "please audiences". Fair enough, but "the car designers", i.e. a bunch of experts are an audience. And there is a huge potential audience that ignores even the most popular classical music. So audience is ambiguous, there are many types of audience and it would be fine for a composer to compose mainly for the "music designers".

Jo, If I understand you correctly:
difficult music "only liked by experts" I don't get this.
I did say (OK, I don't care if a piece is an artistic masterpiece or not, if it don't sound good to me I will not buy it.)
Now,
How are design engineers classed as an audience? They are the equivalent to the composer, the drivers are your so called audience, a car is merely a vehicle but can be used in many ways and for many purposes as can music, there are also many different types of car/vehicle just as there are music.
You say there are many types of audiences which is true but I am concerned with the average audience that attends today's concerts.
What would you say the purpose of music is?

[Andante]

That's a kind thought, I appreciate it.

On the history of the piece:  I wrote it (on request, actually) for specific performers:  a pianist-composer, and the principal winds of a central European orchestra;  but, for no single reason, they have never played it.  If they even read it in rehearsal, I know nothing of it.  I do not mean, in reporting this, to seem to complain, let alone to seem to denigrate the performers;  it is all certainly a "no-fault" situation.  The six may no longer (or only seldom) get together to play;  in short, there is the possibility that it will never be played by those for whom I wrote it.

That said (and on to your question), here in Boston there is quite a respectable number of local ensembles dedicated to new music;  and there are at least three who would be equal to the task, who would indeed give a great performance of the piece.  I have had direct communication (and probably even "face time") with the directors of all three;  I have sent this specific score to at least two of them.  None has performed any of my music.  There is no one reason which will account for this.  There is no doubt that they are all busy fellow musicians.  It seems reasonable to surmise that they are spending their time and efforts on music which they prefer to my own.  Why they entirely freeze me out, heaven alone knows.

I do feel sorry for you perhaps it is technically too difficult for them.
Regarding composers.  If they can't make sure they are present at the rehearsal of their works premier then they are not really committed, that is a situation that I find incredible.   Regards A

[Monsieur Croche]

I do feel sorry for you perhaps it is technically too difficult for them.
Regarding composers.  If they can't make sure they are present at the rehearsal of their works premier then they are not really committed, that is a situation that I find incredible.   Regards A

Often enough, to attend those rehearsals, travel is involved, and it is not a matter of simply going cross town, nor one of readily getting time off from whatever other jobs the composer has to keep afloat.

Where those performers are is another story.  Today, there is some possible long-distance virtual attendance via skype or similar visual / audio links, while that is still not really enough to tell the composer what that music sounds like in the hall.

Small ensembles through to large orchestras, if a composer is fortunate, will commission and then perform a work.  A decision to not perform a work may have nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of performing it well, but a more bureaucratic decision from a board member who thinks the work will not be very welcome with that groups' subscribing audience. 

Some commissions are funded by grant money given to a performing group, who can only spend it commissioning new works.  It gets spent, without any guarantee to the composer it will be performed.  Usually, the group who commissioned the work get sole performing and recording rights to the work for a period of time, more currently and usually, one or two years.

I doubt if the work cited was too difficult for the performers;  most composers have a very good idea when a specific commission comes their way from either individual performers or ensembles, and they have a highly accurate picture of those performers technical abilities, as well as any limitations or special skills the individual performers may have.  The composer then approaches writing the commissioned piece with that all very much in mind.


Best regards.

[Andante]

Often enough, travel is involved, and it is not a matter of simply agoing cross town, nor one of readily getting time off from whatever other jobs the composer has to keep afloat.

Where those performers are is another story.  Today, there is some possible long-distance attendance via skype or similar visual / audio links, while that is still not really enough to tell the composer what that music sounds like in the hall.

Small ensembles through to large orchestras, if a composer is fortunate, will commission and then perform a work.  A decision to not perform a work may have nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of performing it well, but a more bureaucratic decision from a board member who thinks the work will not be very welcome with that groups subscribing audience.

I doubt if the work cited was too difficult for the performers;  most composers have a very good idea when such a specific commission comes and they have a highly accurate picture of the groups' technical abilities, as well as any limitations or special skills the individual performers may have.  The composer then approaches writing the commissioned piece with that all very much in mind.


Best regards.

Fair enough Monsieur.
Regarding the works difficulty I should have used a smiley such as 

[James]

Actually James I think this is wrong. Lots of smart people have convinced themselves to buy just exactly that. Just as they have convinced themselves to believe all cultures are equal, that all truth is socially constructed, that all forms of knowing are equally valid, that wishing makes it so. Never underestimate the capacity for self-deceit, especially amongst smart people.

I had a guy tell me today that Kurt Cobain was a genius. This person claims to be a passionate lover of music, I believe him. I guess my 'physical reaction' to his statement was clearly noticed .. as a picture of J.S. Bach and the 1st page of the 3rd Violin Sonata hang side by side nearby while the conversation is happening. I look over at him .. he goes .. "his lyrics" ..

[Monsieur Croche]

I wonder why we listen to music, great or otherwise?  Is it to draw a "comparison to other works of its own time or in comparison to works of another era"?  I'd venture a guess that each of us has our own personal reason(s) as to why we listen and more particularly, why we choose to listen to classical music.  Listening to music is behavior quite different from a having discussion focusing on the comparison of works.   While I greatly enjoy the former activity, I have little interest in the latter.

You must get quickly bored to tears in the section dedicated to discussing the comparative fine-haired differences of recordings of the same piece.

For me, though I'm literally trained as a musician, including the how of discussing music and the relative quality and 'worth' of a piece, here, in order, top to bottom, is my list of preference of my activity with it...
1.) composing it
2.) playing it (piano)
3.) performing it
4.} 'just' listening.

No. 4 is enough on its own that in one lifetime, you will never be able to cover it all, even without repeat listening to anything :-)


Best regards.

[James]

4.} 'just' listening.

Lots can be 'learned' from just that too!

[James]

I wonder why we listen to music, great or otherwise? 

Stimulation. Appreciation. Emotional/Intellectual - Physical/Spiritual.

[Andante]

You must get quickly bored to tears in the section dedicated to discussing the comparative fine-haired differences of recordings of the same piece.

For me, though I'm literally trained as a musician, including the how of discussing music and the relative quality and 'worth' of a piece, here, in order, top to bottom, is my list of preference of my activity with it...
1.) composing it
2.) playing it (piano)
3.) performing it
4.} 'just' listening.

No. 4 is enough on its own that in one lifetime, you will never be able to cover it all, even without repeat listening to anything :-)


Best regards.

I have never even tried to compose a thing, I am not knowledgable enough however I used to get immense pleasure in playing with others both classical and in my early days Jazz, unfortunately due to the ravages of time listening is all I can do now,  Andante sighing   

[James]

I suspect there was possibly some reverse snobbery involved.

This definitely happens. I've experienced it too. Most people just can't be bothered with it. Oh well, their loss. And the term "Classical Music" is loaded with negative connotations and excess baggage. Doesn't quite help.