Leonard Bernstein disses Beethoven

[BasilValentine]

I seriously doubt that the c# in bar 7, Eroica, 1st mvmt. is ever perceived as "inevitable". Rather as something strange, a strange shift in harmony and I think it takes a somewhat trained listener to connect it at first listen with its "resolution" more than 10 minutes later.
It seems also likely that in most art we perceive a certain mix between surprising and "inevitable" elements are convincing. Apparently something can be both of these and maybe that's particularly gripping.

A problem I have with "When you break it down into elements -- melody, harmony, rhythm, orchestration -- some people say he wasn't the greatest at any of these things." is that if anyone ever listened to music in such a breakdown fashion it would make nonsense out of it. OF COURSE a lot depends on how elements are integrated into the whole. What would it even mean to be "great at rhythm" in isolation?

The C# resolves immediately to D, tortured analyses like those in David Epstein's Beyond Orpheus notwithstanding. Later moves to D-flat are wholly irrelevant and just part of the standard exploration of keys on the subdominant side one hears late in sonata-form movements. In any case, C-sharp and D-flat are not the same functionally! Moreover, the D-C# motion is "explained" in context by the balancing chromatic motion from E-F in the next phrase. Its function in the context of the whole theme is pretty obvious and perceptually salient. It sounds exactly right almost immediately.

[Pat B]

I seriously doubt that the c# in bar 7, Eroica, 1st mvmt. is ever perceived as "inevitable". Rather as something strange, a strange shift in harmony and I think it takes a somewhat trained listener to connect it at first listen with its "resolution" more than 10 minutes later.
It seems also likely that in most art we perceive a certain mix between surprising and "inevitable" elements are convincing. Apparently something can be both of these and maybe that's particularly gripping.

Here is a fuller quote: "It is [the] element of the unexpected that is so often associated with Beethoven. But surprise alone is not enough. What makes his music so great is that no matter how shocking and unexpected the surprise may be, it always somehow gives the impression, as soon as it has happened, that it is the only thing that could have happened at that moment."

After a bit more elaboration he uses that C# as an example of such a surprise. (I just realized that he doesn't actually say that note is "inevitable" or "right" but in context, it seems clear that he thinks so.)

Here is the full lecture.

A problem I have with "When you break it down into elements -- melody, harmony, rhythm, orchestration -- some people say he wasn't the greatest at any of these things." is that if anyone ever listened to music in such a breakdown fashion it would make nonsense out of it. OF COURSE a lot depends on how elements are integrated into the whole. What would it even mean to be "great at rhythm" in isolation?

Lots of people say Schubert and Dvořák were great at melody, and Rimsky-Korsakov and R. Strauss were great orchestrators.

And many commentaries about the Seventh say something very close to "great at rhythm" -- which is strange to me, since the Allegretto's quarter-eighth-eighth-quarter-quarter is not particularly interesting by itself. The melody there is basically one note, and the harmony is quite simple too (as Bernstein and others have noted). But put these individually simple components together and the result is an extraordinarily gripping theme, even before any development starts.

[zamyrabyrd]

The C# resolves immediately to D, tortured analyses like those in David Epstein's Beyond Orpheus notwithstanding. Later moves to D-flat are wholly irrelevant and just part of the standard exploration of keys on the subdominant side one hears late in sonata-form movements. In any case, C-sharp and D-flat are not the same functionally! Moreover, the D-C# motion is "explained" in context by the balancing chromatic motion from E-F in the next phrase. Its function in the context of the whole theme is pretty obvious and perceptually salient. It sounds exactly right almost immediately.

I have to disagree with this. Nothing that Beethoven wrote was in a void or unrelated, particularly when the C# is featured in such a crucial place. 

In the so-called "false reprise" at measure 400, the C# resolves downwards to C. At 419, it goes up to Db* where the theme appears in that key for several measures. It then reverts down to Cb and eventually Bb, the dominant leading into the Key of Eb in the triumphal appearance of the theme in the tonic. Resolving upwards from measure 7 to Eb makes all the difference in the world between the exposition and recapitulation.

*In effect, C# is changed to Db right here, would not just be a passing or unimportant phase if it didn't last for 7 measures. Step-wise motion from the bass is also seen in the beginning of the development where C minor at 180 goes up to C# minor at 184. There's plenty more that could be said about it, but just to give an idea how Beethoven does not bring in a note from the blue, even if it registers surprise.