Dutch Composers

[Dundonnell]

Théodore Gouvy (like Florent Schmitt) was a lorrain composer - ie, he hailed from a portion of France that was annexed back and forth by Germany and France between 1815 and 1945 (Alsace and Sarre were the others). When Gouvy was born in 1819, Lorraine had been handed over to Germany under the Versailles Treaty, following Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo. Therefore, Gouvy could not obtain French citizenship before he was 32 years of age (1851).

He is a very good composer, the author of some large scale chamber works and a very fine Requiem. The file comprises his Sinfonietta, op. 80 and Symphony no. 6, neither of which has been recorded (indeed, I wasn't aware of their existence at all!).  A real find: I can't thank you enough for that!

Sorry to be pedantic...it is the old History teacher in me ...but I think that you are referring to the Saarland rather than Lorraine.

Gouvy was born in the Sarre, most of which was indeed handed over to Prussia(rather than Germany) after the Congress of Vienna in 1815. In 1919, as a consequence of the Treaty of Versailles, the Saarland was placed under French administration as a League of Nations mandated territory and returned to Germany after a plebiscite in 1935.

[springrite]

Downloads mostly complete. The listening will commence tomorrow morn. Thanks!




PS: Can't get onto mediafire here in China, this missed out on all the Dutch and Polish uploads there for the past month.

[Lilas Pastia]

Sorry to be pedantic...it is the old History teacher in me ...but I think that you are referring to the Saarland rather than Lorraine.

Gouvy was born in the Sarre, most of which was indeed handed over to Prussia(rather than Germany) after the Congress of Vienna in 1815. In 1919, as a consequence of the Treaty of Versailles, the Saarland was placed under French administration as a League of Nations mandated territory and returned to Germany after a plebiscite in 1935.

It's even more complicated than that, or at least less clear cut. Gouvy was indeed born in Saarland, in a small town that is now part of Germany (Saarbrücken sits right on the border). Sarre is a region that came into being over 1000 years ago and during its existence it covered an area that is now divided between France, Germany and Luxembourg. Politically it was placed under the tutelage of the Dukes of Lorraine and Bishops of Metz. Lorraine, like Brittany or Burgundy used to be an independent Duchy before it was absorbed by the Kingdom of France. That's why Gouvy is referred to in articles or books as a composer from Lorraine - no mention of Sarre at all. For example the KV617 booklet of the Requiem makes a big fuss about "Gouvy - Un compositeur lorrain".

The confusion is in part due to the fact that France has always been a centralizing state, and smaller entities were routinely absorbed by greater ones and never recognized as entities by the central power. On the contrary, Germany has a long tradition of independent states within the greater federation. Therefore today's Saarland has its own distinct political apparatus as one of Germany's Land. As one of the Allied Forces of Occupation after WWII, France fought tooth and nail to keep the german Saarland from being returned to Germany. It encouraged the formation of an independent state with its own constitution.  It even participated as an independent state in the 1952 Summer Olympics. It became officially part of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland in 1957.

Moving back to topic, can someone upload Roentgen's c# minor symphony on Rapidshare? That stupid file just won't work on my computer. It' a musicmatch file which freezes the instant it's opened .

[UB]

Thirteen pages so far, and still no mention of Institute of Sonology. For shame.

Here's some music from three alumni, Wouter Snoei:

http://www.woutersnoei.nl/composities/pulse/files/pulse.mp3

Alo Allik:

http://tehis.net/sounds/sundimatus.mp3

And Jorrit Tamminga:

http://kmt.hku.nl/~jorrit/mp3/bosch.mp3

And, someone who's just Dutch, Michel van der Aa:

http://www.doublea.net/media_audio/Second%20Self-live.mp3

All these people are alive. I know you folks prefer your composers to be dead (or at least to write as if they were ), but too bad. (No one's forcing you to listen to any of this.)

Thanks for introducing the music of 3 new composers to me. Unfortunately I just have never been able to enjoy that particular soundworld.

Of course Aa is much more mainstream Dutch in the Andriessen mode and I do enjoy his music. I have about a dozen of his works. The earliest piece I have is Auburn for guitar and tape from 1994 and the latest is the 2004 'Second Self' that you linked to. For me Second Self is an excellent fusion of live and electronic sounds. I would put it up there with Saariaho's 'Six Japanese Gardens' and 'Lichtbogen.' Not that they sound the same but how the live and electronics compliment each other.

His 'Here' trilogy is very good and for me it would be even better if it was written for mezzo-soprano but that is a quibble.


Have you heard Aa's 'Mask?' The reviews make it sound worth hearing.

[some guy]

Thanks for introducing the music of 3 new composers to me.

You're very welcome.

Have you heard Aa's 'Mask?' The reviews make it sound worth hearing.

Not yet! Soon, I hope.

[springrite]

And, someone who's just Dutch, Michel van der Aa:

http://www.doublea.net/media_audio/Second%20Self-live.mp3

His works I do enjoy.

Aa. Now, that's a name that has to be assured of near top status on any alphabetical list!

The only person I can think of who would go ahead of Aa is A. (Chinese composer A Bing. Using the western family-names-goes-last system, he'd be Bing A)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

His works I do enjoy.

Aa. Now, that's a name that has to be assured of near top status on any alphabetical list!

The only person I can think of who would go ahead of Aa is A. (Chinese composer A Bing. Using the western family-names-goes-last system, he'd be Bing A)

If you search for Michel van der Aa in, say, a library catalogue, he is indexed as follows: Aa, Michel van der. But his surname is Van der Aa.

[vandermolen]

A work colleague has kindly lent me a CD of Jakob Van Domelsaer's (1890-1960) 1st Symphony and piano concertos. What may I expect? He was a pupil of Wagenaar.

[pjme]

I bought that set a couple of years ago and do not like it.  0:) ...although these works can be classified as very strange and unusual...

Van Domselaer and Mondriaan were friends for a while ( ca 1914-15) but, appartently, they broke up because Mondriaan did not like Van Domselaer's music. In the booklet one can read : His music is now nothing but dissonance.I find it damned ugly and said so. He wants to play God, but it's tough ,you know, having been such good friends"
Somewhere within that craggy first symphony lurks something like Ruggles' Sun treader - but ,afaik, the work is constructed too loosely. It does'n hang together ( sorry for the cliché), misses real power and tension....It left me perplexed. The pianoconcerti are totaly different, in a late romantic style, not unlike Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Busoni. I find them very boring !

It is good to have these discs( good performances I think!) as historical information on a strange loner.

[pjme]

I gave Van Domselaer's first symphony another spin. Weird music! Still don't like it- but for 1921 it is definitely...unusual. There are vague echoes of Mahler ( and Shostakovitch!), but in the end, it remains frustrating. Very often an idea ( melodic, rythmic) is started, but leads nowhere or is stopped abruptly. My -amateur- ears long for resolution, tension,progress...but that never happens.
He experiments with instrumental color ( the clarinets come in a whole family), the finale has (reportedly) an organ..but remains,to my ears, inaudible.

P.

[Dundonnell]

The Etcetera label has now issued 2 cds of music by the conductor/composer Otto Ketting. Vol. 2 has Ketting's 3rd and 4th symphonies and the 3rd is described as "full of the influences of Mahler and Stravinsky".

I am sceptical. Can anyone advise me about Ketting's music? I was under the impression that he was a 'modernist'(code for "I wouldn't like him" )

[some guy]

My -amateur- ears long for resolution, tension,progress...but that never happens.

P, I think you have hit the very nub of it, here. People bring certain expectations to music, and when they hit a piece that doesn't fulfill those expectations, (and just as often, when they merely hit a description of a piece (as, say, "modernist")) they reject it.

I've had that experience myself, so I understand. I've also gotten past it, so can safely advise anyone who does that that you're only hurting yourself, you're only cutting yourself off from an enormous amount of beauty and enjoyment. Of course, you are all free to continue trying to find music that fits your expectations.

I would like to request one thing, again, and that is that you don't transmogrify "I don't like it" into "It's bad music." (I know that many people who are accused of this will deny it. So you needn't bother! I already expect that your denials will be disingenuous! )

OK, end of sermon. Here's a clip (annoyingly interrupted every thirty seconds, but "Oh, well") of the not nearly well enough known Dutch electronic pioneer, Dick Raaijmakers. (Clips of this guy's music are very difficult to find.)

http://www.boomkat.com/jukebox/jbFramed02.cfm?tracks=49137:30014&type=music

[Dundonnell]

The Etcetera label has now issued 2 cds of music by the conductor/composer Otto Ketting. Vol. 2 has Ketting's 3rd and 4th symphonies and the 3rd is described as "full of the influences of Mahler and Stravinsky".

I am sceptical. Can anyone advise me about Ketting's music? I was under the impression that he was a 'modernist'(code for "I wouldn't like him" )

Otto Ketting.......anybody?

[some guy]

Find some Ketting music and listen to it would be my advice.

It might fufill your expectations; it might not. If you rely on others' opinions, opinions very possibly prejudicial and ill-informed, you might prejudge yourself, thus cutting yourself off from even the possibility of enjoying something new (to you) and fresh.

Time to give those ears of yours some real workouts, I'd say.

[Dundonnell]

Find some Ketting music and listen to it would be my advice.

It might fufill your expectations; it might not. If you rely on others' opinions, opinions very possibly prejudicial and ill-informed, you might prejudge yourself, thus cutting yourself off from even the possibility of enjoying something new (to you) and fresh.

Time to give those ears of yours some real workouts, I'd say.

Thank you for your advice

I have no difficulty in principle with accepting your argument that one should find out for oneself what the music of a particular composer sounds like. Unfortunately I do not have unlimited financial means

Ketting is an eminent Dutch composer and conductor. Etcetera has now issued two volumes of his orchestral music. My enquiry was, I suppose, directed principally towards our Dutch members here. I do respect their views and have not found those views in the past to be prejudicial or ill-informed

[springrite]

Thank you for your advice

I have no difficulty in principle with accepting your argument that one should find out for oneself what the music of a particular composer sounds like. Unfortunately I do not have unlimited financial means

Same here. Otherwise we'd all have a collection even bigger than Harry's!

[some guy]

Otto Ketting:

http://muzetunes.com/playback.asx?c=y-LLCralryF8TrbanmGf4wTzaTvArIxi0_JkaHcuMbU=&f=B

From this page.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6900645&style=classical&cart=834550060

It's only thirty seconds, but then it only took me about three minutes to find. I'm sure you could find more if you wanted.

[pjme]

Same here. Otherwise we'd all have a collection even bigger than Harry's!

And a new...shipment is already on its way to Groningen!

[Harry]

And a new...shipment is already on its way to Groningen!

How did you know this?

[pjme]

P, I think you have hit the very nub of it, here. People bring certain expectations to music, and when they hit a piece that doesn't fulfill those expectations, (and just as often, when they merely hit a description of a piece (as, say, "modernist")) they reject it.

I've had that experience myself, so I understand. I've also gotten past it, so can safely advise anyone who does that that you're only hurting yourself, you're only cutting yourself off from an enormous amount of beauty and enjoyment. Of course, you are all free to continue trying to find music that fits your expectations.

I would like to request one thing, again, and that is that you don't transmogrify "I don't like it" into "It's bad music." (I know that many people who are accused of this will deny it. So you needn't bother! I already expect that your denials will be disingenuous! )

OK, end of sermon. Here's a clip (annoyingly interrupted every thirty seconds, but "Oh, well") of the not nearly well enough known Dutch electronic pioneer, Dick Raaijmakers. (Clips of this guy's music are very difficult to find.)

http://www.boomkat.com/jukebox/jbFramed02.cfm?tracks=49137:30014&type=music

"I told you darling, don't listen to Van Domselaer's first symphony again! It's really bad music."