Bob Dylan Wins Nobel Prize for Literature!

[North Star]

When it comes to literature, some consider only what can be read. When the Greeks or the Romans wrote their plays or poetry, it was not so. Theatre was meant to be seen (even if in very static acting) and heard. Shakespeare's or Molière's works were meant to be presented in that way too. Reading a play, a comedy, a tragedy, really ?  And yet, poets and playwrights have received the Nobel Prize.

Not to mention that the great epics, and lyric poetry, of Ancient Greece and other regions were born out of an oral tradition from the prehistoric era.

[SimonNZ]

. The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

^ But you're not considering or replying to the counter-arguments to that that have been made upthread. Here's a couple of mine I'd be interested in your take on (or those who share that view):

And as a Dylan fan I know there will be many lyrics that can read well on the page, but also know there is perhaps a far greater number where as important or more important information is being conveyed through the instrumental accompaniment. Right at this second I'm listening to "Buckets Of Rain", which is a great song, but its the instrumental writing that is doing the heavy lifting in conveying the emotional narrative of the song and elevating what would otherwise be quite simplistic lyrics.

The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Or to put it another way: would you still say  Wilhelm Müller's Die schöne Müllerin poems were masterpieces without Schubert's music? Does a great song setting automatically equate to great/timeless  literature ?

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm a 'class of 56' boomer...The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

Bravo, André.

Sarge

[North Star]

^ But you're not considering or replying to the counter-arguments to that that have been made upthread. Here's a couple of mine I'd be interested in your take on (or those who share that view):

Quote from: SimonNZ on 15 October 2016, 01:57:49

And as a Dylan fan I know there will be many lyrics that can read well on the page, but also know there is perhaps a far greater number where as important or more important information is being conveyed through the instrumental accompaniment. Right at this second I'm listening to "Buckets Of Rain", which is a great song, but its the instrumental writing that is doing the heavy lifting in conveying the emotional narrative of the song and elevating what would otherwise be quite simplistic lyrics.

Quote from: SimonNZ on 15 October 2016, 03:01:23
The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Or to put it another way: would you still say  Wilhelm Müller's Die schöne Müllerin poems were masterpieces without Schubert's music? Does a great song setting automatically equate to great/timeless  literature ?

That's not quite the same thing, as Dylan both wrote and performed his work entirely himself (and with his band). Obviously the two can enhance each other (or not..). Similarly a great actor can bring a line from a play or a poem, or whatever, alive. And, as André said, some literature is clearly meant to be performed, so I don't know if it's all that problematic that the words are enhanced by what is essentially a reading of them.

Also, many of the things that define how Dylan sings his music (rhythm, pauses, etc) are always present in written poetry. Poetry isn't all that far removed from music, even if there's no tune attached to it. And if the works of lets say Frost or Yeats appeared originally as audio books (there are recordings of their readings), would that make them any less literary artists?

And I doubt that nobody was saying that all information passed down in written form should be considered for the Nobel Lit prize. But if it's a work of art that is created in a form of literary art such as the ballad, it's a rather different proposition than judging the literary merits of a scientific paper.

The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

+1

[Ken B]

Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

[SimonNZ]

Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

No, I think there are many facets of the discussion that don't boil down to just that. I don't mean or want to be sounding over-agressive or like this is life-or-death, but I do think music and literature can be defined as seperate art forms, however much a Venn diagram could show them having an area of overlap, however much Dylan may well be one of the most "literary" and "poetical" of songwriters, and am interested in exploring this distinction

[Ken B]

No, I think there are many facets of the discussion that don't boil down to just that. I don't mean or want to be sounding over-agressive or like this is life-or-death, but I do think music and literature can be defined as seperate art forms, however much a Venn diagram could show them having an area of overlap, however much Dylan may well be one of the most "literary" and "poetical" of songwriters, and am interested in exploring this distinction

The people objecting to or mocking his award -- I'm a mocker myself -- all do so because we dont thinks he's a great poet. (And we're not the only ones actually, it's not the alleged greatness of his poetry that even the award's fanboys point to, it's something else.) If we all thought he was a great poet there wouldn't be much debate.

[André]

Literature is a very sophisticated way to communicate. Before the written word, there was the Word (and I'm not referring to John I here  ).

The "word" was meant to transmit signals, commands, stories, emotions.  In a sense (a very primary one) there should not be any need for further elavoration on the subject.

Now, what is the "word" doing in literature ? Well, it's the same as if one is asking "what is God doing in religion ? Literature is ALL about words, non ?

Is one to cut, eliminate, dispossess, eviscerate literature simply because said "word" appears in a different form from that which western, proustian-joycian literary critics and teachers have formed our collective opinion ?

Literature is communication. Means of communication have evolved much since the baldy, coruscative works of Rabelais and Shakespeare to the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen (some 300 years later - come to tink of it, almost unbelievable...) to, well... the modern literature.

I do no judge Dylan's work. Not at all. I am simply not equipped to do so. I'm a man of my age and culture, trapped into a different literary and sound world from an early age. But I have developed a culture that over decades has enabled me to differentiate the fake and the modish from the authentic and potentially sustainable. Something that will be taught in high schools and universities in the coming decades.

[Florestan]

Reading a play, a comedy, a tragedy, really ? 

Yes, really. Have you never read any Shakespeare or Moliere or Ibsen? Have you never read Goethe´s Faust?

What you basically suggest is that, short of living in an area where theater venues are available, one should not really try to get himself acquainted with plays, ´cause they have to be seen and heard, not read.

who do you think has contributed the most to literature : Bob Dylan or Richard Wagner ?

Neither. You know, literary greatness is measured not only by the intrinsic worth of an author´s entire oeuvre, but also by the influence it exerts on subsequent generations of authors. Great writers such as Dante, Cervantes, Shakespeare, Goethe, Tolstoy, Dostoievsky, Proust, Joyce, you name one of your choice --- they all hugely influenced the literature that came after them. Please show me one writer who counts Bob Dylan among his major literary influences. I´m not saying there isn´t any, I just ask for a name.

Not to mention that the great epics, and lyric poetry, of Ancient Greece and other regions were born out of an oral tradition from the prehistoric era.

Yes but it´s only after they have been written down that they began to be widely circulated and appreciated outside their original culture. Had they continued to be known exclusively by being recited, neither The Iliad nor The Odissey would have had any major impact on European literature, let alone acquired their cult status.

the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen

Just because you don´t get, or don´t approve of, their ideas doesn´t mean they are uncommunicative. Just saying.

[zamyrabyrd]

the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen

Sez you! No influence on culture or generations of writers, so why bother to translate her works into more than 40 languages?

...Something that will be taught in high schools and universities in the coming decades.

Looks like Austen got a head start.

[James]

He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

I'm sure he's an interesting guy .. but his musicianship is questionable too. I don't hear much progress in terms of his playing or singing. It's gotten a lot worse. Especially live, minus any recording production value .. he's largely incoherent as a vocalist .. all the musicians he hires can't save him. I don't care what anyone says.

[André]

"uncommunicative" was definitely a bad choice of word. I should have written restrained instead. 

[zamyrabyrd]

"uncommunicative" was definitely a bad choice of word. I should have written restrained instead. 

Nothing wrong with restraint or discipline.

[Karl Henning]

Verily.

[San Antone]

Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

Except that being a poet is not the criteria the Nobel prize committee uses.  The rules stipulate that work to be considered need not be "belles lettres" these statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value".

Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

[Ken B]

Except that being a poet is not the criteria the Nobel prize committee uses.  The rules stipulate that work to be considered need not be "belles lettres" these statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value".

Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

Well, unless you think he won for his prose, it's his lyrics he won for. So yes, he won for his poetry.

An award I will happily concede as deserved as that for the cancer cure in the twenties 

[San Antone]

Well, unless you think he won for his prose, it's his lyrics he won for. So yes, he won for his poetry.

An award I will happily concede as deserved as that for the cancer cure in the twenties 

Song lyrics are not poetry.  But song lyrics can have literary merit, e.g. Bob Dylan's.

[jochanaan]

Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

+1!

...Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

+1

[Karl Henning]

Please, Mrs Henry, there's only so much I can do;
Why don't you look my way, and pump me a few?

[jochanaan]

Song lyrics are not poetry....

I challenge that.  The Psalms are lyrics.