Mahler vs. R. Strauss

[Mirror Image]

I don't hold that or anything else against Strauss.  His music doesn't strike me as especially heart on sleeve, though.

To get into a bit more detail, I find personally that Strauss's kind of lyricism comes off as glib and unctuous.  It's sleek and pretty and sparkly but lacks inner conviction and motivation.  His tendency to saturate the orchestral palette for a constant wall of sound that isn't related to the musical "argument" (in other words, filling up with subsidiary voices of little or no importance other than that thickness) goes against my sensibilities, and I fully accept that this is merely my taste as a Mahler lover who prefers that even the most insignificant background lines play a role in moving the piece forward.

Again, this is not to say that I dislike Strauss's music across the board, merely to explain why I find it significantly less appealing.

But you see your very own reasoning for not having a strong preference for Strauss' music could very well be said of Mahler and I'm sure it has been said before. In my mind, the two are more alike than one thinks. It merely boils down to personal preference as with anything in art. Of Mahler's music, Kindertotenlieder, Symphonies 4, 5, 7, & 9, and Das Lied van der Erde are the works of his that move me the most.

[Marc]

Well, Mahler touched my heart. 0:)

But, even despite his hammer blows, heavenly strings, tension, irony, sadness (and the rest), it's still great listening to (for instance) Strauss's songs or shaking with Salomé.

[Mahlerian]

But you see your very own reasoning for not having a strong preference for Strauss' music could very well be said of Mahler and I'm sure it has been said before.

Yes, by people who don't know much of anything about Mahler.  These are likely the same people who think his music formally disjointed or motivically diffuse.

In my mind, the two are more alike than one thinks. It merely boils down to personal preference as with anything in art. Of Mahler's music, Kindertotenlieder, Symphonies 4, 5, 7, & 9, and Das Lied van der Erde are the works of his that move me the most.

For me, Mahler's best works are all of the Ruckert Songs and the Kindertotenlieder, Das Lied von der Erde, the Symphonies 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10, with the Sixth being my favorite.

[knight66]

I tend not to get into discussions that are set up in such a way that to prove the case for one composer, you have to denigrate another. But, I think this thread has attracted a lot of interesting comment.

I would be hard pressed to say which composer I prefer. But DLVDE is for me, (how I react to it), the most significant piece either penned.

I see the suggeations that Strauss is a bit superficial, facile even. He was a showman and a pragmatist and a man of the theatre. If you read the correspondence between him and his main librettist Hofmannsthal, he is very serious about what he is doing, very fussy to maintain his vision of an idea. Producing opera, he was keeping an eye on the commerciality of the works and his gift for melody was deployed. He has been accused of retreating from the Expressionist direction of Elektra. But his much later operas were mostly relatively uncommercial. They are hard nuts to crack, Daphne, Danae, Frau ohne Shatten, Intermezzo....and some others, rather dry, not crowd pleasers. They are the works of a serious composer who was digging into his art, Metamorphosen, nothing superficial there.

I think there are two sides to his coin.

[jochanaan]

Mahler once said, "Strauss and I tunnel from opposite sides of the mountain. One day we shall meet."

[Chronochromie]

For me, Mahler's best works are all of the Ruckert Songs and the Kindertotenlieder, Das Lied von der Erde, the Symphonies 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10, with the Sixth being my favorite.

What's wrong with the 7th? 

[Mahlerian]

What's wrong with the 7th? 

Nothing whatsoever.  I love all of Mahler's works, even Das klagende Lied.

[Chronochromie]

Nothing whatsoever.  I love all of Mahler's works, even Das klagende Lied.

Yes, I know, I read your analysis of the 7th on TC. It's just weird seeing all post-3rd works except the 7th.

But for whatever reason a lot people, even mahlerians like Deryck Cooke dislike the 7th, and I'm always surprised as it's probably my favorite.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Yes, I know, I read your analysis of the 7th on TC. It's just weird seeing all post-3rd works except the 7th.

But for whatever reason a lot people, even mahlerians like Deryck Cooke dislike the 7th, and I'm always surprised as it's probably my favorite.

It doesn't progress as organically and doesn't have the overall unity of some of his other works but it is very special in that its overall structure is unique. I can't think of another symphony by anyone quite like it.

[Mahlerian]

It doesn't progress as organically and doesn't have the overall unity of some of his other works but it is very special in that its overall structure is unique. I can't think of another symphony by anyone quite like it.

The first movement of the Seventh is one of my favorite things in Mahler's entire output.  It's that astoundingly inventive, and as much as I do love the rest, with the gorgeous Andante Amoroso and the riotous finale, I do have the sense that it doesn't quite match that opening.

[jochanaan]

No question that R. Strauss is a great master.  But Mahler's music has that extra measure of intensity that for me distinguishes between mere mastery and genius.

[mszczuj]

No question that R. Strauss is a great master.  But Mahler's music has that extra measure of intensity that for me distinguishes between mere mastery and genius.

Yes, music of Strauss often lacks that intensity. On the other hand when it has that instensity it is often intensity even more intensive. Almost all Mahler orchestral songs are masterpieces, almost all orchestral songs of Strauss are just nice. But then he wrote Four Last Songs.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The 7th is also my favourite symphony from the composer that I prefer over the two. I've never found the movements disjointed/without unity really; I hear motific similarities between all of them and even outright quotes to tie them all together....