A struggle with suites

[Maestro267]

I struggle with the term "Suite" when used in the title of musical works. To me, 'suite' implies that it is excerpts from a larger work (a ballet or incidental music, for example), whereas I would much rather in those cases hear the complete score. That is the work, not the "bleeding chunks", even if the suite is sanctioned by the composer for concert performance. However, I'm quite aware that there are works titled "Suite" that are standalone works in their own right. Tchaikovsky's four Suites for Orchestra, Bach's three, Handel's Water Music, etc. But if I come across a new (to me) work titled Suite, I'm more likely to assume at first go that it is merely excerpts of a larger work.

[mc ukrneal]

I struggle with the term "Suite" when used in the title of musical works. To me, 'suite' implies that it is excerpts from a larger work (a ballet or incidental music, for example), whereas I would much rather in those cases hear the complete score. That is the work, not the "bleeding chunks", even if the suite is sanctioned by the composer for concert performance. However, I'm quite aware that there are works titled "Suite" that are standalone works in their own right. Tchaikovsky's four Suites for Orchestra, Bach's three, Handel's Water Music, etc. But if I come across a new (to me) work titled Suite, I'm more likely to assume at first go that it is merely excerpts of a larger work.

It's probably the other way round - most 'suites' are works in their own rights and not a chunk/excerpt/etc. of something else.

Suites that are excerpts of larger pieces often served the purpose of providing a smaller chunk of music to the audience without having to have dancers, singers, etc. It's not a big deal if you prefer the longer pieces - just listen to those. But sometimes other aspects of the music do come across in suites, because the main themes and such are not as spaced out and heard more continuously. One of my favorites is of Bizet's Carmen. I love the opera, but sometimes I want to hear some of the music without having to listen for three hours, so the suite can be handy.

[Parsifal]

I struggle with the term "Suite" when used in the title of musical works. To me, 'suite' implies that it is excerpts from a larger work (a ballet or incidental music, for example), whereas I would much rather in those cases hear the complete score. That is the work, not the "bleeding chunks", even if the suite is sanctioned by the composer for concert performance. However, I'm quite aware that there are works titled "Suite" that are standalone works in their own right. Tchaikovsky's four Suites for Orchestra, Bach's three, Handel's Water Music, etc. But if I come across a new (to me) work titled Suite, I'm more likely to assume at first go that it is merely excerpts of a larger work.

Bach's three?

Almost by definition a suite is not "bleeding chunks." In my listening experience, a suite based on a ballet or opera is more often than not specifically adapted by the composer as a concert piece, with some amount of recomposition (perhaps minimal, perhaps extensive) to create a satisfying whole. What you are describing is usually identified as "excerpts." I think the great majority of the "suites" I listen to are not adaptions, but original compositions in the form of a string of related movements. And there are works that I mentally label "suites" even though they are not called such be their composers (such as Davidsbündlertänze).

[prémont]

I struggle with the term "Suite" when used in the title of musical works. To me, 'suite' implies that it is excerpts from a larger work (a ballet or incidental music, for example), whereas I would much rather in those cases hear the complete score. That is the work, not the "bleeding chunks", even if the suite is sanctioned by the composer for concert performance. However, I'm quite aware that there are works titled "Suite" that are standalone works in their own right. Tchaikovsky's four Suites for Orchestra, Bach's three, Handel's Water Music, etc. But if I come across a new (to me) work titled Suite, I'm more likely to assume at first go that it is merely excerpts of a larger work.

A suite is just a sequence of movements, and may mean many different things, depending upon how these movements were put together. 

[Jo498]

The baroque dance suites were usually not excerpts but nevertheless often comparably loose "collections" compared to later symphonies. Although there are of course large differences: Telemann has programmatic suites with an overarching theme (Don Quixote, Hamburg water music etc.), Bach as usual frequently strives for more systematic unity, Handel's seem sometimes cobbled together but e.g. the Royal fireworks music clearly is not. I am not sure about the suites from Rameau's operas or opera-ballets, I think some of them were extracted later, probably not by the composer.
The Carmen suites are brilliant and charming and work quite well for me. Tchaikovsky's ballet suite are nice enough but they often give a somewhat skewed view of the ballet because so much music is missing.

[Vaulted]

It's probably the other way round - most 'suites' are works in their own rights and not a chunk/excerpt/etc. of something else.

Yes, I was going to say that. I think a suite is in the same category as serenade, cassation, divertimento - a collection of movements which is lighter in mood and (generally) less musically integrated than a symphony.

Suites as excepts from larger works are valid as works in themselves if collected by the composer. There are sometimes notable differences (instrumentation, endings) due to the different performance requirements.

[Monsieur Croche]

It should be put out there that some people really do not care for music which is more episodic, and they tend instead to favor the more clearly structured larger forms along the lines of sonata-allegro or "symphony."  Another way these genres are cast are Miniature / miniaturist vs. larger-scale Formal / formalist.

But, don't let a name-title put you off, i.e. there is someone named 'John' whom you would despise and abhor, and that judgement should not be assumed about everyone named 'john' you meet 

Suites composed originally as a 'Suite' stand on their own.  As already mentioned, these are far more numerous in comparison to those reduced/extracted suites to which you refer.

The other extracted / reworked suites, imo, vary as to worthwhile listens.

The suites of, especially the more integral ballet scores of the 20th century -- the Stravinsky Ballets, Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin, Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe, Copland's magical Appalachian Spring, for example, were done entirely for pragmatic reasons, i.e. to gain greater frequency of performance in concert venues (and revenues for the composers therefrom) vs. the far lesser frequency of performance of the much more expensive fully staged versions. 

I see no point in listening to either suite from Daphnis et Chloe (though masterfully re-orchestrated by the composer) when the original full-length piece is for a seriously large orchestra and includes a full chorus as an additional orchestral section... other than concert presentations and getting Ravel a bit more Ka-ching, these suites have me thinking 'Why Bother?'  I've heard the complete Daphnis et Chloe in performance, on a normal-length symphony program with other works preceding it... so this is entirely possible, as it would be with any of the other scores mentioned.

There is the rationale that those suites bring the music to a wider public, while in all the above instances, the works have an overall integrity (and no 'fill' or 'utility' music.)  I believe that the full works are not only worth a listen in their entirety, but suffer greatly when presented in their redacted form.  I.S.' Petrushka Suite has a 'snappy' and rather dully conventional ending; Copland's masterpiece, originally for thirteen instruments, as a suite is for full orchestra and I find it wholly overblown.  The complete ballet, in its original chamber version, is worth any music lover's time.

(I'm pretty, 'meh' about nearly all film, musical theater, and video game scores, so don't even consider suites therefrom as anything but light concert fare at best.  (Anyone who cares to start a thread and flame war re: "Is the symphonic suite from Star Wars / West Side Story, etc. 'classical,' -- and my early vote answer is 'no,' -- need only go to that thread which is in any classical forum as a long-standing thread w many entries.)

[aukhawk]

It should be put out there that some people really do not care for music which is more episodic, and they tend instead to favor the more clearly structured larger forms along the lines of sonata-allegro or "symphony."

And vice versa, I daresay.

[Spineur]

A suite is just a sequence of movements, and may mean many different things, depending upon how these movements were put together.

Yes !  A little bit like a serie in mathematics.  The sequence has some type of order, exacty like a serie. In french,  suite means something that follows.  This stresses the notion of order.

[Abuelo Igor]

I still remember how surprised I was when I got to listen to the complete Romeo and Juliet ballet by Prokofiev and found out that the music had been dramatically rearranged in the suites that we know and love. "Montagues and Capulets" alone incorporates fragments from quite different parts of the score, in a sequence that doesn't happen in the full work.

However, I would like someone to point out the supposed differences between the second Daphnis and Chloe suite and the third part of the ballet. They pretty much sound the same to me, down to the choral parts (which are sometimes omitted, but not so often).

[jochanaan]

Suites in modern times are often played without interruption between "movements."  The suites from Stravinsky's Firebird and Petrushka are like this, although it is possible to extract movements from them.  The suite from Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin is similarly uninterrupted.  (It actually contains a good half of the music from the complete ballet; the first several scenes are played almost complete except for a few cuts while the last scenes are omitted entirely.  Likewise with Firebird & Petrushka.)  I think of them not as "superior" or "inferior" to the original "complete" works, but merely different.

The Four Sea Interludes and Passacaglia from Britten's opera Peter Grimes are often played as a suite (with breaks), and very effectively.  (I've played them, except for the Passacaglia.)  And since they were written as instrumental interludes to begin with, no re-orchestration is required.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I still remember how surprised I was when I got to listen to the complete Romeo and Juliet ballet by Prokofiev and found out that the music had been dramatically rearranged in the suites that we know and love.

The same is true even of an apparently simple compilation like the familiar Nutcracker Suite. The pieces chosen do not reflect the sequence of the original ballet, and they are chosen instead for effective contrast and continuity of keys and tempos.

Overture - Bb, moderato
March - G, allegro
Sugar Plum - E minor, andante
Trepak - G, presto
Danse Arabe - G minor, lento
Danse Chinoise - Bb, allegro
Mirlitons - D, moderato
Valse - A, waltz tempo, ending presto

[Jo498]

Pretty as it may be, I think the Nutcracker suite is one of the most skewed set of excerpts possible. Except for the ouverture and the valse de fleurs, ALL excerpts are from the Confiturembourg scene in the 2nd act.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Pretty as it may be, I think the Nutcracker suite is one of the most skewed set of excerpts possible. Except for the ouverture and the valse de fleurs, ALL excerpts are from the Confiturembourg scene in the 2nd act.

That is mostly true (the March is from Act One and the Waltz from Two), but there are relatively few self-contained excerpts of about 3-4 minutes each in Act One.

[violadude]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what a suite is and its origins.

The suite was an invention of the Mid-Baroque Era. During that time, French Opera was getting quite a bit of attention, particularly those French Operas composed for the court of King Louis XIV, many of which were written by the famous French composer Lully. It was a well known fact that King Louis XIV really liked dancing, so many of the operas composed for his court were infused with his favorite dance numbers. These operas got very popular all throughout Europe, but they were very extravagant and most people couldn't afford to put on a full production of one. So people started publishing excerpts from the operas, mostly  collections of the popular dance numbers so that people could perform the parts people wanted to hear without having to put on a full production. And so, a Suite in the Baroque Era came to be known most commonly as a collection of dance numbers. So from there, as this conception of the Suite became popular, composers like Bach and Handel started writing independent collections of dance numbers that were strictly for concert purposes. This is how both definitions of Suites were born, as an independently written collection of dances and as a group of pieces extracted from a stage work.

[Monsieur Croche]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what a suite is and its origins.
.......
This is how both definitions of Suites were born, as an independently written collection of dances and as a group of pieces extracted from a stage work.

^^^
+1, and a tip of the hat and a thank you.  I never knew the form / format came so directly from Monsieur Lully and Le Roi Dansant!