Are there particular genres certain composers should have just avoided?

[Dedalus]

Are there any composers that you think are great but were very poor at a certain genre? Like maybe they are in general fantastic but you think they were to terrible at symphonies. Or maybe it's religious music, chamber music or opera.  Any opinions?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I think the only way to really think about the relative lack of skill in some genres by some composers as being due to factors of experience......Perhaps Mahler would have written more interesting chamber music towards the end of his life if he was writing for a combination of instruments where he could exploit the largest timbral palette possible. Perhaps Wagner would have written a better symphony more true to his individual style around the time he was composing Parsifal.

Other times a composer may have been paid to churn out a bunch of pieces to serve a particular function so they could earn a buck. Mozart's German Dances were commissioned, the last symphonies and the Mass in C minor (for example) were not (but may have been composed in advance of other commissions which he may encounter down the track). So it could come down to whether a composer really has a desire to compose a piece or not as well, although there's a lot of speculation going on here.........

With some composers, I just seem to not be particularly interested in a certain genre and I wouldn't be able to give any reason at all other than a failure on my part as a listener. Sibelius and his piano music is what I am talking about here.

[GioCar]

Schubert should have avoided certain librettists or librettos...

[The new erato]

Schubert should have avoided certain librettists or librettos...

Yes, strange how he could write perfect minioperas in his songs, but immediately he tried anything longer it fell apart.....

[Jo498]

The strange thing is that Schubert apparently was very interested in opera writing several full scale operas as well as a bunch of Singspiele and there are even more fragments of abolished projects.

I think there is also a more general problem here that German romanticism took quite a while to find a way writing operas and only succeeded in very few works before Wagner. There is the "foundation" in Weber's Freischütz but his later attempts, Euryanthe and Oberon are problematic and never became core repertoire; Schumann's Genoveva is also considered a failure despite some nice music in there. Even Wagner had two apparently failed romantic/comic operas (Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot) and one Grand Opéra (Rienzi) until he managed a great and lasting romantic opera with The flying Dutchman.
The successful works of the 1810-1830s by Spohr (Faust, Jessonda) and especially Marschner (several, mainly Der Vampyr and Hans Heiling) and some isolated attempts by Hoffmann and Lortzing (Undine, but he his better known for his comic operas although they are also far less popular than they used to be until the 1960s) are mostly forgotten today.

So it is hardly surprising that a young and inexperienced composer like Schubert could not pull something off other more stage-experienced hands like Weber struggled with.

[Chronochromie]

Yes, strange how he could write perfect minioperas in his songs, but immediately he tried anything longer it fell apart.....

Except that his operas hold up just fine as music, ignoring the dumb librettos.

[DaveF]

Interesting that Weber is mentioned, as he's perhaps an extreme example of someone who could only really do opera (and that's an extreme statement, I know).  Apart from the solo clarinet pieces, I find the rest of his œuvre strangely disappointing - by comparison with the wonderful operas, that is.

And just to turn this thread on its head, what about genres that composers never essayed that you wish they had?  A symphony by Verdi - now there's a thought.

[Dedalus]

And just to turn this thread on its head, what about genres that composers never essayed that you wish they had?  A symphony by Verdi - now there's a thought.

An opera by Mahler is something I've always wished he'd done.

[Florestan]

Except that his operas hold up just fine as music, ignoring the dumb librettos.

+ 1.

Interesting that Weber is mentioned, as he's perhaps an extreme example of someone who could only really do opera (and that's an extreme statement, I know).  Apart from the solo clarinet pieces, I find the rest of his œuvre strangely disappointing - by comparison with the wonderful operas, that is.

See above. Euryanthe and Oberon have some of the dumbest librettos ever penned. The (in)famous Paul Scudo nailed it: Wilhelmine von Chezy (librettist for Euryanthe) was one of those oh-so-numerous muses of Romanticism which had a full heart and an empty head. 

[Jo498]

I think we discussed Weber's piano sonatas and some other works a little in another thread (I do not remember exactly where). His output is uneven (so are the mature operas! although uneven at a more exalted level) but I think overall he is rather underestimated except for Freischütz. The symphonies are very early pieces and I was disappointed as well because I had expected something in the vein of his much later ouvertures to Freischütz, Euryanthe or Oberon. The concertos can be facile at times but they do not strive for much more and at their best they are better than that, especially the f minor concert piece.
As he was also a great piano virtuoso there are good reason why some of these pieces exist and why they sometimes mainly rely on virtuoso pianism. So it was not a case of him striving for things he had not mastered; rather he put (German) opera on a new level whereas his instrumental music mostly remains within the contemporary framework set by lesser composers such as Hummel (which is probably roughly where we'd put Weber, except for his operas).

[mc ukrneal]

I think we discussed Weber's piano sonatas and some other works a little in another thread (I do not remember exactly where). His output is uneven (so are the mature operas! although uneven at a more exalted level) but I think overall he is rather underestimated except for Freischütz. The symphonies are very early pieces and I was disappointed as well because I had expected something in the vein of his much later ouvertures to Freischütz, Euryanthe or Oberon. The concertos can be facile at times but they do not strive for much more and at their best they are better than that, especially the f minor concert piece.
As he was also a great piano virtuoso there are good reason why some of these pieces exist and why they sometimes mainly rely on virtuoso pianism. So it was not a case of him striving for things he had not mastered; rather he put (German) opera on a new level whereas his instrumental music mostly remains within the contemporary framework set by lesser composers such as Hummel (which is probably roughly where we'd put Weber, except for his operas).

Hummel is most definitely not a lesser composer. What a strange thing to say....

[Ken B]

Hummel is most definitely not a lesser composer. What a strange thing to say....

Plus one. Hummel, Haydn's hand-picked successor btw, was a splendid composer. Have you heard the Chandos set of his piano concerti or the sacred music? Lots of great chamber music too.

[mc ukrneal]

Plus one. Hummel, Haydn's hand-picked successor btw, was a splendid composer. Have you heard the Chandos set of his piano concerti or the sacred music? Lots of great chamber music too.

Agreed. I have all the concerti that Chandos did and all are pretty darn good, though the Hough disc is one of the best discs in my collection. Of any music.

[Ken B]

Agreed. I have all the concerti that Chandos did and all are pretty darn good, though the Hough disc is one of the best discs in my collection. Of any music.

Yes. As good as say Beethoven's 3rd PC as music too.

[kishnevi]

An opera by Mahler is something I've always wished he'd done.

Das Klagende Lied comes rather close.

Another what-if possibility: a concerto by Schubert.

Or if you want to cast an eye at modern composers, how about a full size symphonic or operatic work by Boulez?

[Ken B]

Milhaud, symphonies. Awful stuff, but he wrote appealing short or odd-ball pieces. His petite symphonies are very good.

[Mirror Image]

Milhaud, symphonies. Awful stuff, but he wrote appealing short or odd-ball pieces. His petite symphonies are very good.

+1 Actually, the more I don't listen to Milhaud, the more I'm a better listener for this. There's many composers who wrote too much, but Milhaud could've written too little and that would've been enough.

[anothername]

+1 Actually, the more I don't listen to Milhaud, the more I'm a better listener for this. There's many composers who wrote too much, but Milhaud could've written too little and that would've been enough.

Matter of taste I think.

[Mirror Image]

Matter of taste I think.

Sure as with anything.

[Mirror Image]

Das Klagende Lied comes rather close.

Definitely a work I'm going to be exploring in the upcoming days.