Most Tragic Symphony (four choices allowed)

[Heck148]

What are the symphonies most expressive of 'tragedy'

Mahler #6
Shostakovich #8
Shostakovich #14
Tchaikovsky: Pathetique Symphony

[Mister Sharpe]

Nobody's voted for Brahms 4??!?!?!

Just going to - been thinking about this all the live long day!  And whilst doing so some of the symphonies I had in mind were mentioned:

and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.

Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's Kartoffelpuffer).

[Spineur]

Shostakovich #13 babi.yar
Brahms # 4
Rachmaninov Isle of the dead

[North Star]

Rachmaninov Isle of the dead

Is it a symphony, though?

[Spineur]

Is it a symphony, though?

Symphonic poem, close enough

[Androcles]

I thought quite hard about whether to include Pettersson in my answer to this. In the end I think I felt that what Pettersson expresses is beyond simple tragedy. To me it is a deep expression of catharsis.

On the subject of tragedy, I think Weinberg 12, In Memoriam Dmitri Shostakovich probably deserves a shout.

[Turner]

I think there´s more variation to Pettersson´s individual symphonies than perhaps often thought of.
As regards the 6th, it´s an hour of slow music & there´s no real idyll or triumph at the end; I tend to think of it more as a lamento with built-in, expressive contrasts, the Kamu recording being my favourite.

[relm1]

Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6

[André]

Great thread!

Pettersson 9
Tchaikovsky 6
Arnold 9
Mahler 6

Asraël and Mahler 9 as well as more Petterssons could have been included. I might change my mind in a few months.

[Jo498]

and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.

Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's Kartoffelpuffer).

That's not a viennese/austrian dish... rather Kaiserschmarrn or Topfenstrudel.
I guess he was trying out the "tragic" mode and not quite succeeded. A finished Schubert b minor might qualify for the thread but as it stands the andante is too serene, I think.

[vandermolen]

Is it a symphony, though?

The choral symphony 'The Bells' could be a candidate here.

[amw]

Conventional as fuck answers:

Sibelius 4
Brahms 4
Tchaikovsky 6
Mahler 6

Honestly? For my non-conventional choice, Arnold 7. Yes, it's light music, ok, fine. But something in the way the music becomes increasingly surreal over the course of the work is very effective at expressing an eventual slide into alienation and nausea, more so than anything I can think of by Shostakovich. It's a tragedy without catharsis (or perhaps more accurately, where the catharsis is subverted and denied, with undoubtedly the most brutal series of F major chords in the repertoire).

I think when I try to categorise things as tragedies I look for musical works that

(a) have the potential to go either way—i.e. not limp and lifeless from the get-go;
(b) make use of carefully positioned hopeful moments;
(c) make use of elements signalling alienation and loss of hope;
(d) bring about the "downfall" or failure of something—a theme or idea, a traditional structure, "normal" musical ideas of finality, etc;
(e) this failure is experienced as being, in the end, inevitable (even if initially surprising or "unfair");
(f) through experiencing this failure we have at least the promise of catharsis

So on point (a) something like Pettersson 6 which starts in utter darkness, manages to raise itself up towards a hope of redemption, and fails but achieves catharsis through a nice and hopeful melody after the end is not really what I'd consider a tragedy; it made it that far, after all. Something that starts limp and lifeless and stays that way for the entire piece also isn't much of a tragedy. Tragedy has to start out in a better place than it ends. On point (b) I'd have to exclude something unremittingly grim and dark like Górecki 3. Point (c), yeah. Most pieces do have these, it's just the conventional path is to gradually remove them whereas the tragic path is for them to multiply. Point (d) is pretty obvious and we could use it to make the case for, e.g. Nielsen 6 or Prokofiev 6 as also being tragic, by that standard. Points (e) and (f) would militate against completely unprepared "downer endings", which are not really a common feature in music anyway for the most part.

[vandermolen]

Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6

I thought of including all these apart from the Tchaikovsky. The VW 9 might have been a better choice than my own one of No.6.

[relm1]

Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6

I thought of including all these apart from the Tchaikovsky. The VW 9 might have been a better choice than my own one of No.6.

I think it is interesting to realize that each from my list was the composers last symphony (well except for Mahler who completed the writing of his 10th) but it seems to say there might be a retrospective bitterness in display at the end of their life. 

[vandermolen]

Great thread!

Pettersson 9
Tchaikovsky 6
Arnold 9
Mahler 6

Asraël and Mahler 9 as well as more Petterssons could have been included. I might change my mind in a few months.

Thank you Andre! 
All great choices too. I need to get my head around Pettersson No.9 - totally agree about the Arnold although I think that Symphony No.6 would qualify too.

[vandermolen]

Just going to - been thinking about this all the live long day!  And whilst doing so some of the symphonies I had in mind were mentioned:

and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.

Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's Kartoffelpuffer).

I like all these choices - so many great work. I agree about Tchaikovsky.

[vandermolen]

My List No.2 (I've tried to choose hitherto unmentioned works):

Nielsen: Symphony 6

Honegger: Symphony 5

Glazunov: Symphony 8

Prokofiev: Symphony 6

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Bruckner 7 (because of that wonderful adagio)
Sibelius 4
Mahler 6
Beethoven 7 (such a sunny work on the whole, but that one movement is so powerfully tragic that I think it counts as much as tragic as a merry symphony).

Conventional choices, once again.

[Karl Henning]

Beethoven 7 (such a sunny work on the whole, but that one movement is so powerfully tragic that I think it counts as much as tragic as a merry symphony).

(Forgive me if taking your post as the point d'appui seems to be singling you out; I mean you no such discourtesy.)

First:  I think this underscores the problem with the premise.  There is a contrast among the several movements which is inherent to (let's say) most symphonies, which makes the practice of boiling a symphony down to a single affect inartistic, unsatisfying, and more than anything, unfair to the composer.

Second:  Is the Allegretto of the Op.92 "tragic"?  I'm not sure that's the right word, even for the 'A' material in A Minor, let alone for the movement as a whole, let alone for the symphony as a whole.


(Not saying that you all should not carry on and enjoy the exercise;  just wanted to get this off my musical chest.)

[Jaakko Keskinen]

No offense taken, Karl. You made several very good points.