Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[drogulus]

     Americans in the aggregate like immigrants. It's not just slogans, it's an orientation towards accepting people who want to live like us as "us".

     

     That blood and soil shit don't fly. This wasn't our soil, and we don't have a "blood".

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Bottom line, communism was a disastrous experiment whose cost in ruined human lives and exhausted resources far offset any benefits. Whoever sincerely believes it is still a viable solution to world's problems is at best a naive and at worst an idiot.

No fundamental disagreement on my part, but...one of the things that soured me on the whole Cold War "liberation from communism" ideology was the realization (when I started spending lots of time in East/Central Europe) that a lot of people missed communism. Polls regularly show large minorities, or even majorities, who thought things were better back in the old days. The highest figure I saw was 72% of Hungarians (in 2009) thought things were better before 1989. (Granted, Hungary had the somewhat liberal "goulash communism," but still...). Figures like this are a damning comment on the failures of the post-1989 transition for a huge portion of the population.

[bwv 1080]

No fundamental disagreement on my part, but...one of the things that soured me on the whole Cold War "liberation from communism" ideology was the realization (when I started spending lots of time in East/Central Europe) that a lot of people missed communism. Polls regularly show large minorities, or even majorities, who thought things were better back in the old days. The highest figure I saw was 72% of Hungarians (in 2009) thought things were better before 1989. (Granted, Hungary had the somewhat liberal "goulash communism," but still...). Figures like this are a damning comment on the failures of the post-1989 transition for a huge portion of the population.

more or less the same demographic that voted for Trump in the US and thinks things were better in the 1950s?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

more or less the same demographic that voted for Trump in the US and thinks things were better in the 1950s?

Not quite. Professors who have to leave their jobs because there's no more state funding for science, and musicians who have to work abroad because their salaries have plunged and they can no longer live on what they earn, don't really fit the Trump demographic analogy.

Anecdotally, I have a friend in Moscow who works for the Russian Academy of Sciences. He says a lot of the scientists vote Communist (even if they have disdain for the party), because they miss the good old days when Soviet science was fully funded.

[eljr]

more or less the same demographic that voted for Trump in the US and thinks things were better in the 1950s?

To be fair, in the 50's women did know their place was in the kitchen (and in the bedroom)

On a serious note, it's the same demographic that caused a civil war in 1861. Even the same flag is often used.

[bwv 1080]

Not quite. Professors who have to leave their jobs because there's no more state funding for science, and musicians who have to work abroad because their salaries have plunged and they can no longer live on what they earn, don't really fit the Trump demographic analogy.

Anecdotally, I have a friend in Moscow who works for the Russian Academy of Sciences. He says a lot of the scientists vote Communist (even if they have disdain for the party), because they miss the good old days when Soviet science was fully funded.

But certainly scientists and musicians are not 72% of the population, and also goes to show that people tend to vote their economic interest regardless of principle

[bwv 1080]

On a serious note, it's the same demographic that caused a civil war in 1861. Even the same flag is often used.

Well the South was against protectionism and for free trade and was indifferent to immigration. 

[Zeus]

...one of the things that soured me on the whole Cold War "liberation from communism" ideology was the realization (when I started spending lots of time in East/Central Europe) that a lot of people missed communism.

This is a complex topic, not conducive to sweeping generalizations.  Attitudes toward the past will differ between countries, between demographic segments within countries, etc, and will change over time.  What may be true for English-speaking young professional Poles, for example, will not be true for, say, older Bulgarian farmers.

I would be very careful about asserting either a strong enthusiasm for or a strong opposition to the changes since the collapse of Communism.  As Facebook would say, it's complicated.

[eljr]

indifferent to immigration.

immigration was forced and they loved the slave labor it provided

hardly indifferent

seems they would prefer to go back to that template, to be fair, they fought a war to retain the practice and after the war did all they could to keep the forced immigrants in squalor 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

This is a complex topic, not conducive to sweeping generalizations.  Attitudes toward the past will differ between countries, between demographic segments within countries, etc, and will change over time.  What may be true for English-speaking young professional Poles, for example, will not be true for, say, older Bulgarian farmers.

In fact, I agree completely with this.

But certainly scientists and musicians are not 72% of the population, and also goes to show that people tend to vote their economic interest regardless of principle

Yeah, most of the 72% would consist of factory workers, miners and the like (classes that were in a certain way "privileged" under socialism). As "Bubbles" says, it's complicated.

[bwv 1080]

immigration was forced and they loved the slave labor it provided

hardly indifferent

seems they would prefer to go back to that template, to be fair, they fought a war to retain the practice and after the war did all they could to keep the forced immigrants in squalor

Whatever, but its just ignorant to put all the Trump dynamics on the South.  There is a broad, primarily Northern and Western, anti-immigrant, nativist tradition that Trump is resurrecting.  The current rhetoric has much more in common with 19th century know-nothing and anti-Chinese immigrant campaigns than it does the pro-slavery movement of the South. 

[Karl Henning]

Whatever, but its just ignorant to put all the Trump dynamics on the South.  There is a broad, primarily Northern and Western, anti-immigrant, nativist tradition that Trump is resurrecting.  The current rhetoric has much more in common with 19th century know-nothing and anti-Chinese immigrant campaigns than it does the pro-slavery movement of the South. 

Yes.

[eljr]

Whatever, but its just ignorant to put all the Trump dynamics on the South. 

Sure would but it's the largest swath of his core supporter, a core tenant of Trumpism is racism.

Hence all the traitor flags at Trump rallies.

You didn't see those flags at  Clinton rallies and he and she were from the south. McCain did not inspire them and he was republican.
Bush's did not wrap themselves in them either.

Trump got 46% of the vote and the good ole boys are not 46% of the country so obviously he has support from racists in other areas.

[eljr]

The current rhetoric has much more in common with 19th century know-nothing and anti-Chinese immigrant campaigns than it does the pro-slavery movement of the South.

It seems as such because even Trump does not overtly speak of slavery.
He even supports racism in implied actions.

Seems it's like cutting hairs because at it's root it's about people that "are not like us."

Weather that be skin color, language or customs. Even the clothes some wear is repelled. A simple turbine has gotten many an Indian beaten.

[Florestan]

This is a complex topic, not conducive to sweeping generalizations.  Attitudes toward the past will differ between countries, between demographic segments within countries, etc, and will change over time.  What may be true for English-speaking young professional Poles, for example, will not be true for, say, older Bulgarian farmers.

Correct.

people tend to vote their economic interest regardless of principle

Correct as well.

[André]

This is a complex topic, not conducive to sweeping generalizations.  Attitudes toward the past will differ between countries, between demographic segments within countries, etc, and will change over time.  What may be true for English-speaking young professional Poles, for example, will not be true for, say, older Bulgarian farmers.

I would be very careful about asserting either a strong enthusiasm for or a strong opposition to the changes since the collapse of Communism.  As Facebook would say, it's complicated.

Indeed. It's common for russian villagers to have a portrait of Stalin next to the standard icons on their walls. Many pine for « the good old days ».


https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/opinion/sunday/stalinist-nostalgia-in-vladimir-putins-russia.html

[bwv 1080]

Indeed. It's common for russian villagers to have a portrait of Stalin next to the standard icons on their walls. Many pine for « the good old days ».


https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/opinion/sunday/stalinist-nostalgia-in-vladimir-putins-russia.html

As a WW2 buff, I can attest the internet population of Stalin-denialist 'tankies' rivals that of Wehrmacht fanboys



I have seen most of the positions below argued on WW2 facebook groups

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Stalin_apologetics

[SimonNZ]

Stalin had "bear hands"?

meanwhile:

Russian officials and state media mock 'weak' GOP senators after Moscow visit

Russian broadcasters mocked the Republican lawmakers who visited Moscow over the Fourth of July holiday and gloated about the Kremlin's role in electing President Donald Trump.

Seven U.S. senators and one congresswoman — Sens. Steve Daines (R-MT), John Hoeven (R-ND), Ron Johnson (R-WI), John Kennedy (R-LA), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Richard Shelby (R-AL), John Thune (R-SD) and Rep. Kay Granger (R-TX) — traveled to Russia for closed-door meetings with high-ranking Kremlin officials,

Shelby led the delegation on tours of St. Petersburg and Moscow, where they met with Russia's foreign minister and parliamentarians, but did not meet with Russian president Vladimir Putin, as they'd hoped.

[...]

"What trouble did we cause?" one Russian TV analyst said last week, before the senators arrived. "We just elected Trump, that's all."

The GOP lawmakers started their trip last weekend in St. Petersburg, where they were welcomed by Gov. Georgy Poltavchenko, a former KGB officer and Putin ally, and then met Lavrov and former Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak, whose contacts with Trump campaign officials ahead of the election have been eyed by special counsel Robert Mueller.

The all-Republican delegation also met with Vyacheslav Volodin, speaker of the Duma house of parliament, and Konstantin Kosachyov, head of the foreign relations committee — who each have been sanctioned by the U.S. for their ties to Putin.

Daines insisted the GOP lawmakers had been tough on Russia.

"We sent a very strong message and a direct message to the Russian government," Daines told Fox News.

The Montana Republican, who returned from the trip early to join Trump at a campaign rally in his home state, said the lawmakers asked Russia not to interfere in U.S. elections, respect Ukraine's sovereignty, work alongside the U.S. for peace in Syria, and follow obligations under nuclear arms treaties.
Kislyak, who is now a member of Russia's upper house of parliament, wasn't impressed.

[...]

Russian broadcasters mocked the Republican lawmakers as "weak," saying their tough talk changed after arriving in Moscow.

"We need to look down at them and say: You came because you needed to, not because we did," said Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko on state-run television."

[milk]

"I have broken more Elton John records. He seems to have a lot of records. And I, by the way, I don't have a musical instrument. I don't have a guitar or an organ. No organ. Elton has an organ. And lots of other people helping. No, we've broken a lot of records. We've broken virtually every record. Because you know, look, I only need this space. They need much more room. For basketball, for hockey and all of the sports, they need a lot of room. We don't need it. We have people in that space. So we break all of these records. Really, we do it without, like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical – the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth, right? The brain. More important than the mouth is the brain. The brain is much more important." - the President of the United States of America
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-elton-john-696490/

[zamyrabyrd]

Whatever, but its just ignorant to put all the Trump dynamics on the South.  There is a broad, primarily Northern and Western, anti-immigrant, nativist tradition that Trump is resurrecting.  The current rhetoric has much more in common with 19th century know-nothing and anti-Chinese immigrant campaigns than it does the pro-slavery movement of the South.