Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

Started by kishnevi, November 09, 2016, 06:04:39 PM

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71 dB

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 01:23:24 PM
I am sorry I triggered you. But you need to understand three things: 1) the US system is institutionally tilted to the Right, and anyone more progressive than Pelosi and Feinstein (who are progressives in US terms) won't beat Trump.  2)The sources you rely on are biased, one sided, and as capable of distorting facts as anyone else. Be as skeptical of them as you are of Fox and CNN, and you will begin to have a better understanding of things. 3)Money is central to politics, because politics is about who controls money and power. The only way to get money out of politics is to abolish both money and politics.  Anyone who pretends otherwise can be assumed to be trying to scam their way to power.

1) Yes, tilted right bigly! However, among American people left wing ideas are very popular. Just about everything on that front polls over 50 % maybe the only exception being ban of death penalty. It has been estimated that if it had been Trump vs Bernie Sanders in 2016 Bernie would have won and Bernie's popularity has only risen since that and the popularity of lefty ideas among American has risen too. If it is Trump vs Bernie Sanders 2020 Bernie will eat Trump alive!  >:D Non-progressives would have hard time beating Trump.

2) Yes, they are biased. Everybody is. They tell you how they are biased (to the left) and they give you the facts. Please fact check them and see it they distort the facts. Listen to them and think if what they say makes sense. Be critical! Kyle Kulinski encourages people who watch him to be critical of what he says. He can do that. A rational person should notice fast that they are completely different than Fox and CNN. The corporate media in the US is so bad that these independent lefties are a superior source of information. If you don't see that then you simply live in a corporate bubble.

3) Politics is about what? No no no! Politics is about serving people. They vote for you and you serve them. You fight for them to make their lives better and doing so you earn their support. That's what politics is about in democracy. Since the US is an oligarchy and a democracy only on paper, it happens that the rich get to buy most of the politicians and those politicians serve those who bought them. In real democracy every single candidate would have the same government granded budget to use to campaign and equal fair coverage on media. That would make it a market of ideas and the candidates with best ideas would often win.

You tell me to understand these things? Wow.  ::)
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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on March 15, 2019, 03:42:02 PM
1) Yes, tilted right bigly! However, among American people left wing ideas are very popular. Just about everything on that front polls over 50 % maybe the only exception being ban of death penalty. It has been estimated that if it had been Trump vs Bernie Sanders in 2016 Bernie would have won and Bernie's popularity has only risen since that and the popularity of lefty ideas among American has risen too. If it is Trump vs Bernie Sanders 2020 Bernie will eat Trump alive!  >:D Non-progressives would have hard time beating Trump.

2) Yes, they are biased. Everybody is. They tell you how they are biased (to the left) and they give you the facts. Please fact check them and see it they distort the facts. Listen to them and think if what they say makes sense. Be critical! Kyle Kulinski encourages people who watch him to be critical of what he says. He can do that. A rational person should notice fast that they are completely different than Fox and CNN. The corporate media in the US is so bad that these independent lefties are a superior source of information. If you don't see that then you simply live in a corporate bubble.

3) Politics is about what? No no no! Politics is about serving people. They vote for you and you serve them. You fight for them to make their lives better and doing so you earn their support. That's what politics is about in democracy. Since the US is an oligarchy and a democracy only on paper, it happens that the rich get to buy most of the politicians and those politicians serve those who bought them. In real democracy every single candidate would have the same government granded budget to use to campaign and equal fair coverage on media. That would make it a market of ideas and the candidates with best ideas would often win.

You tell me to understand these things? Wow.  ::)

You have a very naive view of politics, is the best I can say.

You are very clearly a dedicated leftist. (Perhaps not in Finnish terms, but certainly in US terms.)  So is Kulinski. As a person who is dedicated to science, shouldn't you be constantly evaluating your data, looking for errors, assuming your sources to be fallible? And above all, be especially skeptical about sources that merely confirm your previous ideas? Which is what Kulinski is.

What I truly don't understand is why you are so opposed to the idea that leftist ideas are not as popular in the US as you want them to be, and that among Democratic candidates, the one who is least progressive  is the one most likely to beat Trump.

The US trends to the right, and the way our system is set up, the right always has an advantage over the left.  The portions of the US population who do trend left are exactly those with the least influence: the young, minorities, etc.
70 percent of Americans may want Medicare for all, but the 30 percent who don't are the ones much more likely to vote. Obama won the Presidency twice because he was able to motivate a group that does not always vote.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

Quote from: JBS on March 14, 2019, 06:34:54 PM
Wrong diagnosis. The problem is that everyone has been trained to think for decades that a college degree is essential to success, whether or not the student is suited for college.  That is also the source of the debt problem.  And college tuition was never free (unless you were a vet benefiting from the GI Bill.)

Wisdom
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

drogulus

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2019, 05:17:19 PM
Wisdom

     I don't think so. This generation of students is unlikely to be less realistic about the need for higher education than earlier ones that had the advantage of going to state colleges and universities that used to offer free tuition. What trains students to think they need this education is that good jobs that require a high school graduation only have largely vanished.

     There have always been people unsuited to higher education. Why should there be so many more now? No, I don't buy the explanation, it's not wise. It's a disastrous policy, lives are damaged, families won't form, careers are delayed, the economy will lose the productivity, there is literally nothing that was gained and a great deal lost.
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JBS

Quote from: drogulus on March 15, 2019, 07:24:35 PM
     I don't think so. This generation of students is unlikely to be less realistic about the need for higher education than earlier ones that had the advantage of going to state colleges and universities that used to offer free tuition. What trains students to think they need this education is that good jobs that require a high school graduation only have largely vanished.

     There have always been people unsuited to higher education. Why should there be so many more now? No, I don't buy the explanation, it's not wise. It's a disastrous policy, lives are damaged, families won't form, careers are delayed, the economy will lose the productivity, there is literally nothing that was gained and a great deal lost.

Do you need a college degree to be an auto mechanic? Or just the specialized training a vocational school or program will provide.
For that matter, do you need a college education to write software or sell cars?

This is apropos
QuoteThe best remedy to this problem might be to admit that college is, to some degree, a scam. Note that these parents were evidently unconcerned that their kids—who were often coached to fake learning disabilities so they could get more time on the ACT and SAT—might struggle with their course loads. It's because college is a joke, and it's easy enough for an academically disinclined grifter—an Olivia Jade, if you will—to get by studying nonsense subjects. They're paying for the experience and the diploma, not the actual education.

This is a point that Bryan Caplan raises in his excellent book The Case Against Education. Caplan argues that most of the value of a college education is signaling rather than skills. Students don't learn very much that will be useful to them in the job world, and even if they do, they quickly forget it. But a diploma signals to employers that the diploma-holder is competent in some abstract way—they jumped through a bunch of impressive-looking hoops, and are thus more worthy of a job than people who didn't. The implication of Caplan's research is that public funding of higher education is therefore a waste: It doesn't actually benefit society to subsidize a signaling mechanism if there's little relevant skill-gaining along the way. It just punishes everybody who, for whatever reason, doesn't have access to the right hoops.

https://reason.com/blog/2019/03/13/college-bribery-scandal-defund-loughlin/

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 07:33:46 PM
Do you need a college degree to be an auto mechanic? Or just the specialized training a vocational school or program will provide.
For that matter, do you need a college education to write software or sell cars?

This is apropos
https://reason.com/blog/2019/03/13/college-bribery-scandal-defund-loughlin/

     That's not good enough. Students and parents know what college is about, and it was about the same things generations ago. Some go to learn, some to grow up, some to make connections that will be valuable, some because the careers they want require it. Go ahead and do your Republican alternative and create a million additional auto mechanics, this world needs and always will need people with a high level of general education and the social skills college provides. I'm 70 and appreciate how much easier it was when I was young than it is today, how diminished the prospects are.

     If that's what Caplan argues, it's not worth considering. I stated why. The reasons college serves students are various and beneficial. What you say he says is a fat non sequitur about other reasons college might advance a persons life like signalling and hoop jumping, which appear to me to be useful for an employer. If you want employers to not use signals or stop caring about the poise and sophistication they desire from the educated pursue that, if you can figure out how. If college is valuable for what Caplan condescendingly thinks are the wrong reasons, he is not making a very good argument that it isn't also valuable for the right reasons, too.

     My niece has learned enough in college to be a tutor to other students. She belongs to a generation that can't afford to drop out and drop back in later like so many in mine did.
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SimonNZ

seen elsewhere:

A colleague of mine just described Trump's veto as a "Fischer-Price 'My First Veto'".



Ciaccona

Quote from: SimonNZ on March 15, 2019, 11:22:22 PM
Rush Limbaugh suggests New Zealand shootings might be a false flag attack committed by a leftist to smear conservatives

Hey Simon - I was reading about the mass shooting the last few days and thought of you.
Do you live in Christchurch? - Has what happened affected you much?.
Edit: There's another member from NZ - amw who might have have something to say about it too (would be interested in hearing from her)...

SimonNZ

Hey. Yeah I live here. I don't think I knew anyone who was shot, but still utterly disgusting and dispiriting, and the last thing I would expect to see here. My feelings were perfectly expressed by the PM, if you heard them. A big "+1" to everything she said.

Ciaccona

Quote from: SimonNZ on March 15, 2019, 11:48:03 PM
Hey. Yeah I live here. I don't think I knew anyone who was shot, but still utterly disgusting and dispiriting, and the last thing I would expect to see here. My feelings were perfectly expressed by the PM, if you heard them. A big "+1" to everything she said.

Thanks for your reply Simon - I was pretty shocked by the news. I always kind of think of NZ as being free from lots of gun violence, like Australia.
I'm really saddened and disgusted too - Why is it always innocent people who suffer in these situations. :(
I read that some Australian guy was arrested over it. I'll keep up with the news, I hadn't heard your PM speak about the event yet.

71 dB

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 04:50:33 PM
You have a very naive view of politics, is the best I can say.

I HAD a naive and inaccurare view of American politics before Trump's victory. Not saying I am an expert on American politics today, but I have an understanding of what is happening and why.

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 04:50:33 PMYou are very clearly a dedicated leftist. (Perhaps not in Finnish terms, but certainly in US terms.)  So is Kulinski. As a person who is dedicated to science, shouldn't you be constantly evaluating your data, looking for errors, assuming your sources to be fallible? And above all, be especially skeptical about sources that merely confirm your previous ideas? Which is what Kulinski is.

Even in Finland I am a lefty. I vote for the Green Party which is considered a lefty party and if I didn't vote for them I would vote for the Left Alliance Party. I don't care about labels. These two parties agree with my own opinions most of the time (more than other parties) so of course I vote for them regardless of whether they are called left wing or not.

What errors do you find in Kyle Kulinski's videos? Actually sometimes he is wrong and ADMITS it and corrects the mistake. How well do you know Kulinski and the left to beging with? You assumer the left and the right are as bad, which if you knew these things as well as I do is not true. Corporate media is about protecting the intrests of the top 1 %. The left is the antidote for that. They fight for the 99 %. The former does what do because the top 1 % buys them to do that. The latter does it because democracy is broken and people are suffering and struggling.

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 04:50:33 PMWhat I truly don't understand is why you are so opposed to the idea that leftist ideas are not as popular in the US as you want them to be, and that among Democratic candidates, the one who is least progressive  is the one most likely to beat Trump.

Why are you opposed to the idea that leftist ideas ARE popular in the US? You admit yourself that the US is poltically on the right. That's means right wing politics which means that the middle class and the poor are struggling when the top 1 % hoardes all the money. Of course that will eventually lead to leftism. You think that after 40 years of stagnated salaries (while the income of the top 1 % has sky-rocketed) the workers are fine with more stagnation? No, they are not! You think that people knowing about single-payer healthcare all over the World and it's superiority are fine with paying huge premiums, most expensive drugs in the World and ridiculous co-pays? No, they are not. What I have learned during the last 2 years that Americans are not idiots. They are just misled by the corporate media. The internet is changing that. You have options for information sources. You can go to Youtube and hear what Kyle Kulinski has to say.

Hillary Clinton lost to Trump. Maybe you think she was too progressive? I say she wasn't progressive enough. She didn't campaign for the left-wing ideas people want. Yes, she is hated and all that, but maybe people would hate her LESS if she actually fought for them? Hillary Clinton is a corporate hack. She had a vision of presidency for herself, not for Americans and that's why people hate her.

Even if a status quo Democrat like Biden won Trump, that would not help much Americans. The US is the only first World country in the World having third World problems. That won't be fixed until progressives have the power.

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 04:50:33 PMThe US trends to the right, and the way our system is set up, the right always has an advantage over the left.  The portions of the US population who do trend left are exactly those with the least influence: the young, minorities, etc.

Corporate media tries to keep up this myth and you fall for it thinking Kulinski is just a crazy left-winger.

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 04:50:33 PM70 percent of Americans may want Medicare for all, but the 30 percent who don't are the ones much more likely to vote. Obama won the Presidency twice because he was able to motivate a group that does not always vote.

Even majority of Republican voters want Medicare for all! I think it was 52 % of Rebs and 85 % of Dems. Of the 30 % most oppose medicare for all because of corporate media smearing and Koch brothers lapdogs fearmongering single-payer healthcare.
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71 dB

Quote from: JBS on March 15, 2019, 07:33:46 PM
Do you need a college degree to be an auto mechanic? Or just the specialized training a vocational school or program will provide.
For that matter, do you need a college education to write software or sell cars?

It's not about what kind of education is needed for a certain job. It's about the freedom to choose what kind of job you try to get. Should it be so that everybody from poor families become auto mechanic? Where is the economical ladder? Shouldn't it be so that if you are dumb but from rich family (someone like Trump), you don't have access to higher education because you don't pass the entrance exam and your daddy can't pay you in? Maybe Trump would have become better auto mechanic than businessman/president?
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BasilValentine

Trump got a partial endorsement from the Christchurch terrorist, who hailed him as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose," while dismissing his competence on policy and leadership. From the white supremacist perspective, apparently Trump's heart is in the right place.

Todd

Quote from: 71 dB on March 16, 2019, 03:36:19 AMbut I have an understanding of what is happening and why.


No, you do not. 

Back to the real topic: Trump.  I don't like Nancy Pelosi.  She said no to impeachment.   >:(
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

71 dB

Quote from: Todd on March 16, 2019, 06:00:08 AMNo, you do not. 

Yeah yeah yeah. I had my meltdown already. It's useless trying to make me have another one. I don't take you or JBS seriously. 

Quote from: Todd on March 16, 2019, 06:00:08 AMNBack to the real topic: Trump.  I don't like Nancy Pelosi.  She said no to impeachment.   >:(

Nobody likes Nancy Pelosi (except her donors).
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Todd

Quote from: 71 dB on March 16, 2019, 07:17:02 AMI don't take you or JBS seriously. 


You take the Young Turks seriously.  That's all anyone needs to know.  You're fundamentally ignorant of the US in every regard.  You are certainly free to believe otherwise.  Clearly, you do. 


Quote from: 71 dB on March 16, 2019, 07:17:02 AMNobody likes Nancy Pelosi (except her donors).


Fresh evidence of your fundamental ignorance of the US.  Carry on.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Christabel

Pelosi is a hideous old gargoyle, with politics to match.

71 dB

Quote from: Todd on March 16, 2019, 07:22:26 AM

You take the Young Turks seriously.  That's all anyone needs to know.  You're fundamentally ignorant of the US in every regard.  You are certainly free to believe otherwise.  Clearly, you do. 

The style of TYT is entertaining, but they do pretty good job imo. They give the facts and context. Can't say I agree with them 100 % of the time, but most of the time anyway. When these left-wingers comment on what the right-wing/corporates have said I hear the opinions of both sides, but I pretty much NEVER agree with the right.

If not knowing the GDP of every state is ignorance then yes, I am ignorant, but I don't think I need such knowledge to see that the middle class has been decimated in the US and progressive changes are badly needed. The fact that you don't see it tells me you live in your (upper middle class?) bubble. Maybe you make enough money to not experience the struggle? I understand that you don't care about fellow Americans, but try to understand that those who are worse of than you and have much lower income are struggling and want progressive change.

Quote from: Todd on March 16, 2019, 07:22:26 AM
Fresh evidence of your fundamental ignorance of the US.  Carry on.

Please educate me about who else likes Nancy Pelosi besides of her big money donors whose bidding she does?
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LKB

Quote from: André on March 14, 2019, 08:30:46 AM
Isn't the pigeon thing a cruel and unusual punishment ?

I would agree, pigeons should have targets of higher quality.

  :o,

LKB
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...