Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 1554749 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15720 on: March 24, 2019, 02:47:43 PM »
I'm not sure I understand what a 3.5 point drop is, but I guess it's good, and I am glad for you.
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Offline lisa needs braces

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15721 on: March 24, 2019, 03:27:07 PM »
Basil,  you're trying to persuade people with facts.  That doesn't work with people whose entire political agenda is based on denying facts.

The fact is that the same political faction that insisted on shoving Hillary Clinton down people's throats have suffered another humiliating defeat.


Online SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15722 on: March 24, 2019, 04:11:54 PM »
The fact is that the same political faction that insisted on shoving Hillary Clinton down people's throats have suffered another humiliating defeat.

He's the same corrupt lying incompetent embarrassment this week that he was last week.

Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15723 on: March 24, 2019, 04:41:45 PM »
The fact is that the same political faction that insisted on shoving Hillary Clinton down people's throats have suffered another humiliating defeat.

I actually agree that Hillary was shoved down people's throats, but then again had she not been shoved down people's throats the campaign would have improved her skills as a candidate, or at least allowed room for an actual Democrat to run against her in place of Bernie.

But the Mueller report is a humiliating defeat for no one.

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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15724 on: March 24, 2019, 05:18:27 PM »
But the Mueller report is a humiliating defeat for no one.


Of course it is.  It's a humiliating political defeat for Dems.  Dems will do their best to posture and misrepresent what happened, but after more than two years of drivel about collusion with Russia, it did end up being a nothingburger, and there are literally millions of worthless words available online demonstrating that fact.  Trump was right all along.  And now he has a nifty election issue.  I sincerely hope Dems are stupid enough to pursue obstruction seriously.  There is a very good chance that they are that stupid.
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Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15725 on: March 24, 2019, 05:28:06 PM »

Of course it is.  It's a humiliating political defeat for Dems.  Dems will do their best to posture and misrepresent what happened, but after more than two years of drivel about collusion with Russia, it did end up being a nothingburger, and there are literally millions of worthless words available online demonstrating that fact.  Trump was right all along.  And now he has a nifty election issue.  I sincerely hope Dems are stupid enough to pursue obstruction seriously.  There is a very good chance that they are that stupid.

The report says no member of Team Trump knowingly co-operated with Russian attempts at outreach.

So No Collusion simply means "we were a bunch of naifs and idiots who couldn't figure out we were being played by Russia."
Not an inspiring strategy.
Of course Trump won't say it that way but Trump's love of truth is well established.

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Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15726 on: March 24, 2019, 05:29:59 PM »
Not enough evidence of obstruction apparently. Which makes one wonder how much more would be enough.

Obstruction was never really chargeable in this case. It would have required knowing what Trump was thinking at the time, and mindreaders are not allowed to give evidence.

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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15727 on: March 24, 2019, 05:36:29 PM »
The report says no member of Team Trump knowingly co-operated with Russian attempts at outreach.

So No Collusion simply means "we were a bunch of naifs and idiots who couldn't figure out we were being played by Russia."
Not an inspiring strategy.
Of course Trump won't say it that way but Trump's love of truth is well established.


That's an early attempt at spin, and not a good one.

Trump was right all along.

It'll be easy to portray Dems as suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome after over two years, and the longer they cling to their fantasies, the easier and easier it will become.  We need more Adam Schiffs and fewer Nancy Pelosis.
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15728 on: March 24, 2019, 05:55:03 PM »

Of course it is.  It's a humiliating political defeat for Dems.  Dems will do their best to posture and misrepresent what happened, but after more than two years of drivel about collusion with Russia, it did end up being a nothingburger, and there are literally millions of worthless words available online demonstrating that fact.  Trump was right all along.  And now he has a nifty election issue.  I sincerely hope Dems are stupid enough to pursue obstruction seriously.  There is a very good chance that they are that stupid.

I’m going to wait to see what is actually written in the report, assuming that happens, before trying to predict what its overall impact and significance will be. We have no idea what is in it. It will be interesting to see if matters not yet public have been referred to other authorities for investigation. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 05:58:24 PM by BasilValentine »

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15729 on: March 24, 2019, 05:59:04 PM »
I’m going to wait to see what is actually written in the report


Good for you.  That is meaningless.


We have no idea what is in it.


Of course we do.  The Attorney General wrote a summary.  That provides a very good idea of what is in it.
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15730 on: March 24, 2019, 06:11:16 PM »

Of course we do.  The Attorney General wrote a summary.  That provides a very good idea of what is in it.

It might for those unburdened by imagination and curiosity. It is a summary of key findings. Key is subjective. 

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15731 on: March 24, 2019, 06:16:02 PM »
It might for those unburdened by imagination and curiosity. It is a summary of key findings. Key is subjective.


You contradict yourself.  You wrote "[w]e have no idea what is in it" and now this.  Words is hard.

Hopefully, this upcoming week provides enough information that you cannot possibly understand with your musicological understanding of the law so that you continue to live in your fantasy world.  You appear to be quite comfy there.

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Everything dies - Alien Bounty Hunter, The X-Files

Everyone dies - William Barr, United States Attorney General

Online SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15732 on: March 24, 2019, 06:21:11 PM »

Of course it is.  It's a humiliating political defeat for Dems.  Dems will do their best to posture and misrepresent what happened, but after more than two years of drivel about collusion with Russia, it did end up being a nothingburger, and there are literally millions of worthless words available online demonstrating that fact.  Trump was right all along.  And now he has a nifty election issue.  I sincerely hope Dems are stupid enough to pursue obstruction seriously.  There is a very good chance that they are that stupid.

There are a variety of other ongoing investigations into Crooked Donnie.

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15733 on: March 24, 2019, 06:27:00 PM »

You contradict yourself.  You wrote "[w]e have no idea what is in it" and now this.  Words is hard.

Hopefully, this upcoming week provides enough information that you cannot possibly understand with your musicological understanding of the law so that you continue to live in your fantasy world.  You appear to be quite comfy there.

Summaries can be accurate, pertinent, well-conceived or not. My error was in not using quotation marks, as in: "A Summary of Key Findings." Very few in either party are content with a summary, which is why there is bi-partisan support for making the report public. Then we will know what is in it and to what extent that is reflected in the summary.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 06:29:21 PM by BasilValentine »

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15734 on: March 24, 2019, 06:31:18 PM »
There are a variety of other ongoing investigations into Crooked Donnie.


Sure are.  But the big one was a bust.  The others have to wait until Trump is out the White House to proceed, if there is even enough to act on.  And then if Dems take the White House and go after Trump, that will be an electoral gift to Republicans later on.  The biggest bonus of Dems pursuing politically motivated prosecutions of their political opponents is that the US could and hopefully will descend into an all out slugfest with both parties pursuing their opponents when the executive branch changes hands.  The possibilities for paralysis are breathtaking.


My error was in not using quotation marks


Your error is in not knowing what you are writing about.
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Online SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15735 on: March 24, 2019, 08:38:01 PM »
We'll see. I suspect that you should get your crowing done now because the text and implications will be knottier.

In the meantime I guess there will be some quick pardons for Cohen and Manafort. Well...maybe just Manafort. And perhaps Butina? And all sanctions lifted for Daddy Vladdy?

Offline Rinaldo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15736 on: March 24, 2019, 11:47:39 PM »
it did end up being a nothingburger

Funny how such a nothingburger turned into so many indictments and guilty pleas.

Offline arpeggio

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15737 on: March 25, 2019, 04:01:45 AM »
As far as I am concerned we are in an non-shooting civil war.

David Frum (he is a former member of the Bush Jr. administration) one of the points he makes in his book Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic, has been is that there is a faction in the conservative movement that realizes that they are in the minority and that the only way they can impose their agenda is by trashing the constitution.  I saw on television a woman state that if we have a dictator she would want him to be Trump.  Most of the people in the rally appeared to concur.  The women is a fool.  She apparently does not appreciate what it would be like to live in a dictatorship.  Any type of dictatorship, even a liberal one, would be bad.

So what if the Mueller report is a dud.  It is just one battle in the war.  I will continue to resist the Trump movement. 

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15738 on: March 25, 2019, 06:24:08 AM »
Once again, I think we should wait to read the Mueller report before speculating about its political significance, or the significance of Barr's summary. This summary of the evidence for conspiracy raises more questions than it answers:

“[The] investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

These are the questions I want to have answered before drawing conclusions about this statement:

1. Was the "failure to establish" due to a lack of evidence of conspiracy and criminal intent or was it due to a failure to establish that the Russians involved (Veselnitskaya, Kilimnik, etc.) were bona fide Russian government actors? Barr's summary could mean either, but evidence publicly known suggests it is the latter. For example, it has been established that two Trump campaign officials shared internal RNC polling data with Konstantin Kilimnik, a "former" GRU operative.* If the evidence of conspiracy is strong and only the bona fides of the Russian actors are in doubt, the full text of the Mueller report could be highly damaging to the administration.

2. I would like to know what standard was applied for establishing conspiracy or coordination. Was it evidence sufficient to prove the case in a court of law? That would be my guess. But the standard in the court of public opinion would likely be less stringent, more like that for a civil case: a preponderance of evidence even if it is not sufficient for a criminal conviction. This is why the actual text of the Mueller report could be politically damaging to the administration despite the conclusion in the summary.

*Most of us have heard that there is no such thing as a "former GRU operative." (Just ask the poor bastard murdered in Salisbury.)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 06:36:40 AM by BasilValentine »

Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15739 on: March 25, 2019, 06:27:33 AM »
     
Funny how such a nothingburger turned into so many indictments and guilty pleas.

     OK, evidence of election rigging is insufficient for prosecution, and so is evidence of criminal intent for an obstruction charge. What the full Mueller report will reveal is what the Barr letter left out, which is how far short of prosecutable the evidence is in the part of the investigation that Mueller retained. We are in rolling disclosure land. Barr wrote a letter about what conclusions were not found. The business of discovering what conclusions will be found will go on, and on, and on. I trust Barr will fulfill his role as Conflicted Democrat General faithfully and the investigatory trains will run on time.
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