Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[zamyrabyrd]

If there were a wall that ragtag mob would still have the right to appear at a port of entry and request asylum. It's perfectly legal. By the way, Trump's base — his financial base — is certainly the rich elite, and it seems not all of them are U.S. citizens.

I don't know how the goodheartedness or generosity of the American people morphs into a right for anyone to claim asylum. There are so many false concepts of rights floating around but non-citizens do not have rights in another country.

During the spring of 2018, the first large group attempted to overwhelm border officials when hundreds of El Salvadorans claimed asylum. Many were disqualified because U.S. law states refugees must apply for asylum in the first country possible. If asylum seekers are going through Mexico, they have to apply there and have really good reasons for doing so.  So these people are actually screwing their chances of being accepted in the US by marching through Mexico.

[BasilValentine]

I don't know how the goodheartedness or generosity of the American people morphs into a right for anyone to claim asylum. There are so many false concepts of rights floating around but non-citizens do not have rights in another country.

During the spring of 2018, the first large group attempted to overwhelm border officials when hundreds of El Salvadorans claimed asylum. Many were disqualified because U.S. law states refugees must apply for asylum in the first country possible. If asylum seekers are going through Mexico, they have to apply there and have really good reasons for doing so.  So these people are actually screwing their chances of being accepted in the US by marching through Mexico.

Requesting asylum doesn't mean asylum will be granted. And, of course, non-citizens in the U.S. enjoy many of the same constitutional protections as citizens, because if the basis of these rights were citizenship they wouldn't be unalienable, now would they!? 

[Todd]

And, of course, non-citizens in the U.S. enjoy many of the same constitutional protections as citizens

True enough.  The trick is to prevent them from getting to US soil.  Were Trump truly bold, he'd buy off the Mexican government and militarize Mexico's southern border, where he would be free to send active duty troops all he wants and actually loosen rules of engagement.  (Yes, there's international law to consider, but good luck ever prosecuting a leader of an undefeated great power under international law.)  His current anti-immigrant shtick is for electoral purposes only.  Rich folk don't really want to pay more for domestic help.

[zamyrabyrd]

Requesting asylum doesn't mean asylum will be granted. And, of course, non-citizens in the U.S. enjoy many of the same constitutional protections as citizens, because if the basis of these rights were citizenship they wouldn't be unalienable, now would they!?

Sorry, protection is one thing and rights are another. The inalienable right to life is not granted by the state. It is admitted by the state so foreigners do not get killed. They also have liberty and the freedom to pursue their happiness, so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's liberty or happiness. But rights to enter a country and enjoy economic benefits hitherto unpaid for is ridciulous.

[zamyrabyrd]

His current anti-immigrant shtick is for electoral purposes only.  Rich folk don't really want to pay more for domestic help.

Rich folk can afford it, who cares? Regular folk don't want their own wages being bottomed out by illegal workers getting their jobs.

[Todd]

Rich folk can afford it, who cares?

Rich folk.

[BasilValentine]

True enough.  The trick is to prevent them from getting to US soil.  Were Trump truly bold, he'd buy off the Mexican government and militarize Mexico's southern border, where he would be free to send active duty troops all he wants and actually loosen rules of engagement.  (Yes, there's international law to consider, but good luck ever prosecuting a leader of an undefeated great power under international law.)  His current anti-immigrant shtick is for electoral purposes only.  Rich folk don't really want to pay more for domestic help.

Nor do the struggling orchard owners and dairy farmers where I live wish to pay more for day labor, nor the thousands of small contractors replacing moldy drywall after hurricanes, nor the construction companies suffering a skilled labor shortage. We should be chartering buses to bring in more immigrants, not worrying about whether or not and where to shoot them.

[Todd]

Nor do the struggling orchard owners and dairy farmers where I live wish to pay more for day labor, nor the thousands of small contractors replacing moldy drywall after hurricanes, nor the construction companies suffering a skilled labor shortage. We should be chartering buses to bring in more immigrants, not worrying about whether or not and where to shoot them.

The Great State of Alabama demonstrated only a few years back the folly of actually passing a law restricting illegal immigrant labor before repealing it.  As an American consumer, it is my divine right to have access to low, low prices, so I'm not particularly upset about the influx of low-skill, low-wage, uneducated immigrant labor that can be abused and exploited for my personal benefit.  On the flip-side, displays of shameless cynicism by elected officials offer immense entertainment value, so I'm in something of a pickle.

[BasilValentine]

The Great State of Alabama demonstrated only a few years back the folly of actually passing a law restricting illegal immigrant labor before repealing it.  As an American consumer, it is my divine right to have access to low, low prices, so I'm not particularly upset about the influx of low-skill, low-wage, uneducated immigrant labor that can be abused and exploited for my personal benefit.  On the flip-side, displays of shameless cynicism by elected officials offer immense entertainment value, so I'm in something of a pickle.

Yes, that is a dilemma! Not to mention we will eventually need someone for the base of our various national pyramid schemes.

[Todd]

Yes, that is a dilemma! Not to mention we will eventually need someone for the base of our various national pyramid schemes.

The US has the most favorable overall demographic trends of any advanced economy.  Its racial makeup is changing, and race will become more important politically going forward.  Minor actuarial changes to transfer payment programs along with its projected reasonable overall birth rate will keep core US federal social programs afloat.  Politics will just become nastier.  That's OK. 

[zamyrabyrd]

The US has the most favorable overall demographic trends of any advanced economy.  Its racial makeup is changing, and race will become more important politically going forward.  Minor actuarial changes to transfer payment programs along with its projected reasonable overall birth rate will keep core US federal social programs afloat.  Politics will just become nastier.  That's OK.

If  what you are sying is true, that race will become more important, than that is terrible. The whole liberal thrust was supposed to make people color blind, in the full acceptance of diversity where no one is supposed to have any identity. Only tax money can and will keep social programs afloat.  The more centralized they are, the more funds are eaten up by buraeucracy.

[Todd]

The whole liberal thrust was supposed to make people color blind, in the full acceptance of diversity where no one is supposed to have any identity.

Anyone who actually believed in such nonsense needs to have their head examined.  "Tribalism" has been resorted to by democratic and autocratic politicians for millennia.  It works.

The more centralized they are, the more funds are eaten up by buraeucracy.

This is a questionable assertion, but even assuming it is true, almost no one really cares about efficient government.  Indeed, the concept of efficient government is terrifying.

[zamyrabyrd]

Anyone who actually believed in such nonsense needs to have their head examined.  "Tribalism" has been resorted to by democratic and autocratic politicians for millennia.  It works.

Funny, only a cynic or a demagogue can admit that diversity is bunk. The tragedy is that many people do buy the KoolAid when it comes with a gold star for virtue-signaling.

This is a questionable assertion, but even assuming it is true, almost no one really cares about efficient government.  Indeed, the concept of efficient government is terrifying.

Even more cynical, but did you ever consider that efficient government is one that stays out of people's lives except to protect private property and personhood? Your brand of effiency is complete control of society, which I don't accept and thank goodness there are still those of sound mind who don't either.

[SimonNZ]

U.S. militia groups head to border, stirred by Trump's call to arms

[SimonNZ]

Judge orders Trump to hand over hotel business documents in alleging he violated constitution

[Todd]

Even more cynical, but did you ever consider that efficient government is one that stays out of people's lives except to protect private property and personhood?

Oh, sure, but I'm pragmatic and realize your vision is long dead.  The best practical alternative is hobbling the central government with inefficiency and at times contradictory laws.

[JBS]

U.S. militia groups head to border, stirred by Trump's call to arms

Same group, I believe, that used to send men to the border under Obama because they thought it was being policed.

[71 dB]

A snow and ice covered border with freezing tempertures most of the year is not as permeable or inviting as the southern border of the US.

Finland isn't as cold of a country you seem to think it is. There isn't snow and ice on border "most of the year", but 3-5 months depending how north you are. Last summer we experienced a lot of 25-30°C (77-86°F) days in Finland, thanks to climate change. I'm sure such temperatures aren't particularly "freezing" even for you. Now in the first days of November we have 8-10°C (46-50°F) in Helsinki. Maybe that's freezing for you?

[JBS]

Finland isn't as cold of a country you seem to think it is. There isn't snow and ice on border "most of the year", but 3-5 months depending how north you are. Last summer we experienced a lot of 25-30°C (77-86°F) days in Finland, thanks to climate change. I'm sure such temperatures aren't particularly "freezing" even for you. Now in the first days of November we have 8-10°C (46-50°F) in Helsinki. Maybe that's freezing for you?

Sounds like a New England sort of climate...

I don't remember where zb lives.  I live in Florida, and yes, that is freezing for us.

[amw]

You really have contempt for the middle class in the US. I know by now plenty of people who have benefitted from the tax cuts and not being forced to pay for Obamacare. A snow and ice covered border with freezing tempertures most of the year is not as permeable or inviting as the southern border of the US.

"Inviting"

It's an inhospitable desert for the most part, and there are mass graves there filled with the bodies of people who have tried to cross it whilst fleeing some problem the United States and its fruit companies created in Mexico/Guatemala/Colombia/etc. Not to mention the possibility of being shot by the border patrol, or the Oath Keepers, or the Tohono O'odham if you wind up on their land, etc. Spend some time in Arizona or New Mexico and get back to us on that.