Your favorite recordings of Beethoven's 9th symphony

[dirkronk]

LL it is!  

I have the Fricsay you recommend, I do enjoy it.

I plan to get that Mengelberg 1940 one you recommend. Is the rest of the 1940 set by the conductor at or near the same level as his 9th?

LL can answer, of course, but so will I: Mengelberg's 1940 9th comes from a series of AVRO (live/radio) Beethoven performances, all of which are special IMO. The only odd thing is that a good bit of the first movement of the Eroica from that set was damaged and so some full sets substitute a performance from a different recording time and venue, while (I understand) some offer the incomplete or a 'bandaged together" version using another performance to patch it. The 1940 9th is IMO superb, and I've long contended that Szell studied this one in preparation for his Cleveland 9th. However, Mengelberg's subtleties in phrasing, his control over the orchestra itself, and the long line--that is, the "of a piece" nature of the symphony--are all more pronounced. It invariably makes my shortlist (top 5, 10, whatever) as well.

BTW, Mengelberg's 1938 recording is much different--faster and with different points of emphasis--than the 1940. And I've actually never checked to see if they're the same and just misdated, but I have a Q Disc set 9th that gives a date of March 31, 1938 and an M&A 9th that gives a date of March 1, 1938. So LL...have you heard both? And are they the same--or are we talking two different performances? If YOU don't know, I guess I'll have to get off my lazy butt and do some comparison listening.


Dirk

[Bogey]

....and I've long contended that Szell studied this one in preparation for his Cleveland 9th.

Well, George, that should clinch it right there for you. 

Great post as always Dirk.  Always enjoy reading them.

[George]

Well, George, that should clinch it right there for you. 

Great post as always Dirk.  Always enjoy reading them.

Affirmative on both counts. Thanks Dirk.

BTW, Dirk, this is the Mengelberg Set I am after:

[dirkronk]

Hmmm. When was that set released, George? It says "50th anniversary" so I'm guessing 1990? I see it's a Philips, and that bodes well if the transfers are decent. I have the Philips LP box set from the '70s, and the analog transfers are surprisingly good--warmer and more natural than I would have expected from radio transcript recordings of that vintage (I wound up getting 2 copies...I never want to be without these in good condition), although they do include a different-venue Eroica as I mentioned in my post above. These transfers also included Mengelberg's taps on the podium at the beginning of each piece. According to an old friend of mine who works at a local classical station, the early CD transfers (don't know what label) did NOT include those taps, and in preparing a series of shows on Mengelberg, he borrowed one of my sets to reinstate the taps into the experience for his audience--go figure.

I will warn you about this: my own CD set of the AVRO LvB cycle was the earliest CD transfer by M&A, purchased used, and while it's OK, the sonics really don't compare to those offered in the analog LPs. Not a deal-breaker, by any means, just a heads-up that in this case different transfers make a difference for the listener. It would probably be a good idea to get impressions of someone who's enough of a Mengelberg fan to have heard and compared various sets (LL, do you fit the bill here?). In addition to the Philips you're after and the M&A I own, I know that there's at least one set on Archipel (I think, or a similar historic reissue label--Berkshire used to carry it for cheap) and perhaps others. Also, there are some super-cheapo label copies of the 1940 9th that have floated around for years, but I've never heard that one...might be fine, might be garbage.

Good luck and let us know your impressions when you get to listen!

Dirk

[George]

Thanks Dirk! Will do!

Hmmm. When was that set released, George? It says "50th anniversary" so I'm guessing 1990?

It was released in 2001 by Universal Music, Italy. Made in the E.U.

[jlaurson]

Thanks Dirk! Will do!

It was released in 2001 by Universal Music, Italy. Made in the E.U.

Is it the same (or similar to) as this: http://www.muziekweb.nl/shared/cat/ti/index.php?tnr=AAX5131 ??
"Dutch Masters" vol. 35.
028946252628

[LouisLee]

LL can answer, of course, but so will I: Mengelberg's 1940 9th comes from a series of AVRO (live/radio) Beethoven performances, all of which are special IMO. The only odd thing is that a good bit of the first movement of the Eroica from that set was damaged and so some full sets substitute a performance from a different recording time and venue, while (I understand) some offer the incomplete or a 'bandaged together" version using another performance to patch it. The 1940 9th is IMO superb, and I've long contended that Szell studied this one in preparation for his Cleveland 9th. However, Mengelberg's subtleties in phrasing, his control over the orchestra itself, and the long line--that is, the "of a piece" nature of the symphony--are all more pronounced. It invariably makes my shortlist (top 5, 10, whatever) as well.

BTW, Mengelberg's 1938 recording is much different--faster and with different points of emphasis--than the 1940. And I've actually never checked to see if they're the same and just misdated, but I have a Q Disc set 9th that gives a date of March 31, 1938 and an M&A 9th that gives a date of March 1, 1938. So LL...have you heard both? And are they the same--or are we talking two different performances? If YOU don't know, I guess I'll have to get off my lazy butt and do some comparison listening.


Dirk

I have both 1938 & 1940 versions. They are different recordings. You may easily find the differences from 1st and 4th mvts. The sound effect of 1940 version is also a little bit better than the 1938 one.

[dirkronk]

I have both 1938 & 1940 versions. They are different recordings. You may easily find the differences from 1st and 4th mvts. The sound effect of 1940 version is also a little bit better than the 1938 one.

Sorry, LL, let me clarify. I know that the 1940 differs from the 1938. However, I have TWO 9ths from 1938--one from March 1st on the M&A label and the other dated March 31st on the Q Disc label. I have always assumed that one of the CD companies simply got the date wrong and that both of these were actually the same performance. However, if the dates are correct, I have THREE versions of the 9th by Mengelberg. As I say, though, I never did a side-by-side comparison of the two 1938 versions, so I don't know for sure. I guess I need to find out, though--so I'll pull those discs from my collection next week and have a listen. I'll let you know what I discover.

Cheers,

Dirk

[LouisLee]

Sorry, LL, let me clarify. I know that the 1940 differs from the 1938. However, I have TWO 9ths from 1938--one from March 1st on the M&A label and the other dated March 31st on the Q Disc label. I have always assumed that one of the CD companies simply got the date wrong and that both of these were actually the same performance. However, if the dates are correct, I have THREE versions of the 9th by Mengelberg. As I say, though, I never did a side-by-side comparison of the two 1938 versions, so I don't know for sure. I guess I need to find out, though--so I'll pull those discs from my collection next week and have a listen. I'll let you know what I discover.

Cheers,

Dirk

Sorry, I misterstood what you said. The two 1938 should be the same recording, the following is Mengelberg's compelete recording list:

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/thase29/Willem2/Willem2.html

The date should be May 1, 1938

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/thase29/Willem2/note148.html

[Coopmv]

Hogwood and Goodman, for 2. Since I don't have Brüggen, that pretty well is 3 of 4 of my period instrument versions...



Edit: Neither are as slow as Norrington, but both are much slower than suits me.

I have the Norrington's Beethoven 9th but really have not played it in years.  I bought it years ago almost as a novelty ...

[dirkronk]

Sorry, I misterstood what you said. The two 1938 should be the same recording, the following is Mengelberg's compelete recording list:

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/thase29/Willem2/Willem2.html

The date should be May 1, 1938

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/thase29/Willem2/note148.html

LL, thank you so much for this link. I had not seen it before, and it appears to be a superb resource.

Cheers,

Dirk

[LouisLee]

LL, thank you so much for this link. I had not seen it before, and it appears to be a superb resource.

Cheers,

Dirk

You're welcome!!! 

The webmaster is a Japanese Mengelberg super fan.

What I'm now waiting for is Mengelberg's 1942 live version of Beethiven 9th. It's never released.

[dirkronk]

What I'm now waiting for is Mengelberg's 1942 live version of Beethiven 9th. It's never released.

OK, I'm now so-o-o-o-o-o curious about that one!

Dirk

[DarkAngel]

Furtwangler people............ what about the 1953 live VPO?

I have the Furtwangler 1954 Lucerne, 1951 Bayreuth, 1942 Music & Arts wartime Beethoven 9ths, does this performance belong in the same class?

[Renfield]

Furtwangler people............ what about the 1953 live VPO?

I have the Furtwangler 1954 Lucerne, 1951 Bayreuth, 1942 Music & Arts wartime Beethoven 9ths, does this performance belong in the same class?

I have not heard this one! The only 9th via VPO by Furtwängler I'm acquainted with is the 1951, from Salzburg. A more sombre reading than the three more popular ones (1942, 1951/Bayreuth, 1954) , but not without interest.

Certainly much more cohesive than the Bayreuth.

(Not to say the 1951 VPO might not evince an entirely different approach, of course.)

[DarkAngel]

I have not heard this one! The only 9th via VPO by Furtwängler I'm acquainted with is the 1951, from Salzburg. A more sombre reading than the three more popular ones (1942, 1951/Bayreuth, 1954) , but not without interest.

Certainly much more cohesive than the Bayreuth. (Not to say the 1951 VPO might not evince an entirely different approach, of course.)

Originally released in 1991......now available as Arkiv Music re-issue $16.99
Short samples at Amazon seem to have good sound quality....

[DarkAngel]

Second choice for a recording of the Ninth would, for me, be either the late 70's Herbert von Karajan/BPO one, or the early 60's Herbert von Karajan/BPO recording that preceded it. Karajan somehow managed to project something especially unique in Beethoven's 9th, which - even though he never reached the heights Furtwangler did, in the piece - is enough for me to place him second. Between the aforementioned alternatives, the 1977 recording exhibits greater "elan" and is, on the whole, my preferred "Karajan reading" of the 9th; but the 1963 recording benefits from what I consider more "thrust" in the choral part, as well as better singing (in my opinion).

We are lucky that the evening performance 1977 New Years Eve BPO 9th is captured live on film, this is truely an essential HVK DVD, the last 2 minutes is amazing build up and release that crushes the 1960s HVK version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZryzpIhiw

[Renfield]

We are lucky that the evening performance 1977 New Years Eve BPO 9th is captured live on film, this is truely an essential HVK DVD, the last 2 minutes is amazing build up and release that crushes the 1960s HVK version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXeZz_SokDA&feature=PlayList&p=87DEA7329C952DC7&index=5

Yes! I have acquired that DVD since writing that, and I can only agree. It's comfortably better than any of his DG studio versions.

However, I have - since that post, and especially with the latest remastering - also come to appreciate his Philharmonia 9th greatly. It might not be as forceful as later versions, but it does ultimately feel more introspective as a reading.

[Coopmv]

We are lucky that the evening performance 1977 New Years Eve BPO 9th is captured live on film, this is truely an essential HVK DVD, the last 2 minutes is amazing build up and release that crushes the 1960s HVK version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXeZz_SokDA&feature=PlayList&p=87DEA7329C952DC7&index=5

I have a Sony DVD of the Beethoven 9th by Karajan and the BPO with essentially the same soloists.  That DVD was recorded in 1983.

[DarkAngel]

BTW the original youtube clip I referenced was not 1977 New Years version......
I thought HVK looked too old and tame there in those clips, correction made

Here is correct clip with slightly younger more energetic HVK and the explosive conclusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZryzpIhiw