Great composers with mental disorders?

[Florestan]

As usual, you are wrong.

While I agree that he is usually wrong, I have to admit that in this case he is absolutely right.

Apart from the general problem of diagnosing 200+ years later from vague recollections and descriptions I think we are today in a period of "pathologizing" everything. What was considered a more or less harmless spleen or quirk until a few decades ago is nowadays diagnosed as some mental disorder one some "spectrum". (The converse cases that were considered pathological deviances but are now regarded as within the normal I will not mention but some of them are also obvious and altogether this simply shows that psychiatry and related fields are very far from being exact sciences.)
I am not sure but I would not be surprised if the rise of "high functioning autist" or "Asperger" diagnosis might later turn out to be an artifact of the background of extremely extrovert (mostly American) society that simply cannot tolerate certain kinds of introverts.

E.g. Gould certainly was a neurotic in the vulgar sense of a strange and spleeny person (his early death was also probably related to decades of abuse of pills). But in the early 2000s a Gould fan who probably had read most of what was available then, claimed that Gould had been asexual and it seemed to fit. Only it turned out that Gould had an affair with Susan Foss for many years and they were at times basically living together, apparently Gould also got along well with her children. So while he was probably O-C or whatever to some extent, in other ways he seems to have been far more "normal" than some of the "mythology" suggested.

Similarly, for Beethoven we know of many deep friendships and very probable love affairs. Sure, he could be very difficult and especially when he got deaf, somewhat of a recluse. But we know that he suffered from the social handicap of the deafness and despite the deafness had at times a considerable social life.
These facts simply do not fit at all with an extreme introvert loner image. (I don't say that this proves he did not suffer some mental disorders, but certainly not any associated with extreme introversion and voluntary isolation.)

Thread winner.

[Monsieur Croche]

As usual, you are wrong.  I am actually diagnosed with multiple cognitive disorders and am a professional musician with a masters degree in composition.  I have multiple struggles that I have no interest in explaining other than to say you are again wrong.

Your OP asks if a disorder(s) is a contributing factor which can actually enhance the creative ability / output of artists with disorders.

The fact you have / had multiple struggles and that you are a pro musician and earned a master's in composition somewhat affirms that those with disorder(s) who do accomplish-- do what they do despite the disorder(s), not because of them.

Not everyone with a disorder(s) is patently talented and develops that talent to a high level of achievement.  Some patently talented people also have disorders and if and when they struggle with those disorders -- as you have done -- despite the disorder(s), still accomplish things.

Best regards

[Turner]

Quote from: Jo498 on Today at 09:16:11 AM

Apart from the general problem of diagnosing 200+ years later from vague recollections and descriptions I think we are today in a period of "pathologizing" everything. What was considered a more or less harmless spleen or quirk until a few decades ago is nowadays diagnosed as some mental disorder one some "spectrum". (The converse cases that were considered pathological deviances but are now regarded as within the normal I will not mention but some of them are also obvious and altogether this simply shows that psychiatry and related fields are very far from being exact sciences.)
I am not sure but I would not be surprised if the rise of "high functioning autist" or "Asperger" diagnosis might later turn out to be an artifact of the background of extremely extrovert (mostly American) society that simply cannot tolerate certain kinds of introverts. (...)

Excellent post.

[Marc]

Who is right, who can tell, and who gives a damn right now.
Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know.

https://www.youtube.com/v/fhCLalLXHP4

[Gaspard de la nuit]

I am not sure but I would not be surprised if the rise of "high functioning autist" or "Asperger" diagnosis might later turn out to be an artifact of the background of extremely extrovert (mostly American) society that simply cannot tolerate certain kinds of introverts.

As someone who has a child diagnosed with a high functioning form of autism, formerly known as Asperger's Syndrome, I find this comment insensitive and uninformed. Have you ever met anyone with this diagnosis? My son is anything but introverted but he cannot communicate with the other kids at school the same way that you or I could.  He does not understand social behavior. Are you suggesting this is not real?

[relm1]

As someone who has a child diagnosed with a high functioning form of autism, formerly known as Asperger's Syndrome, I find this comment insensitive and uninformed. Have you ever met anyone with this diagnosis? My son is anything but introverted but he cannot communicate with the other kids at school the same way that you or I could.  He does not understand social behavior. Are you suggesting this is not real?

Thank you!  I agree with your position that this condition is misunderstood but also think the diagnosis isn't quite understood so please don't take offense.  This might have been a very stupid topic that I initiated but I am genuinely curious about it.  I personally believe it exposes there is a great deal of misunderstanding on the topic so worthy of discussion.   I feel that Jo498's remark was certainly not a thread winner.  Just a different point of view around a complicated topic.

[Androcles]

Isn't Schumann the classic case here, as a (probable) manic depressive who (probably) died of syphilis? People said he would do nothing for months and then suddenly write a symphony in a few days....

[Jo498]

No, I am not saying that it is not real.
But if one looks a little bit into the history of psychiatry one cannot escape the impression that in certain times very particular illnesses have been frequently diagnosed, only to disappear almost without a trace a few decades later. I read a fascinating scholarly article on this some time ago but I cannot find the link now. In any case, the history of psychiatry and psychology does not convince me that in all these cases we simply "know it better" today. It is too soft and too young a science, too enmeshed with political attitudes, weltanschauungen and also institutions to think that it would simply go for the truth and nothing but the truth.
(I did not want to open that can of worms but one of the most blatant examples is obviously our changed attitude to homosexuality and other paraphilias that were treated as "perversions" until a few decades ago.)

I did not say that all those Asperger diagnoses were wrong. I said I would be surprised if it turned out later that quite a few cases were due to an inability to accept "normal" spleens and the desire to treat anything somewhat deviant as some kind of pathological condition. And introversion in a almost pathologically extrovert (everyone a saleman of oneself) society might be one character trait that is pathologized.

Maybe my example was poorly chosen.
But it can hardly be denied that we pathologize a lot of behaviors or character traits that seem to be either new or exploded in prevalence. E.g. Attention deficit disorder, all kinds of learning disabilities, all kinds of distorted self-perception disorders, whatever. Maybe most of these people really need treatment and meds. But I have the strong suspicion that there are a lot of other factors at work here. I am far from an expert and it would take us too far afield. But the eagerness with which such psychiatric conditions are ascribed to famous persons of the past is certainly not founded on facts and serious research.

[amw]

Isn't Schumann the classic case here, as a (probable) manic depressive who (probably) died of syphilis? People said he would do nothing for months and then suddenly write a symphony in a few days....

Schumann definitely experienced notable symptoms that could have indicated a mental illness; not only a tendency towards depressive and manic episodes, paranoia and high-risk behaviour, but later in life hallucinations, suicidal behaviour and apparent dissociation. Musicologists and medical professionals argue a lot over what disorder in particular he would have been diagnosed with under the DSM-IV or V or whatever. I'm not sure that is relevant, but his symptoms clearly did impair his life and work (and eventually led to his death).

I believe Malcolm Arnold was diagnosed with major depression and alcoholism and is suspected to have had either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Bernd Alois Zimmermann also suffered from depression (which eventually killed him). Of composers predating modern psychiatry, Gustav Mahler is known to have consulted Sigmund Freud although it's uncertain whether he would have met clinical standards for depression. Tchaikovsky is a somewhat more likely candidate, with several mental breakdowns and a suicide attempt to his credit.

Re Glenn Gould, he was not diagnosed with any mental disorders—and not only lived during a time when such diagnoses were possible, but evidently had hypochondriac tendencies and took a lot of care with his health. I would be very surprised if he experienced mental illness symptoms and didn't seek out a specialist to have them diagnosed. He might have just been addicted to painkillers. >.>

[Androcles]

Schumann definitely experienced notable symptoms that could have indicated a mental illness; not only a tendency towards depressive and manic episodes, paranoia and high-risk behaviour, but later in life hallucinations, suicidal behaviour and apparent dissociation. Musicologists and medical professionals argue a lot over what disorder in particular he would have been diagnosed with under the DSM-IV or V or whatever. I'm not sure that is relevant, but his symptoms clearly did impair his life and work (and eventually led to his death).

I believe Malcolm Arnold was diagnosed with major depression and alcoholism and is suspected to have had either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Bernd Alois Zimmermann also suffered from depression (which eventually killed him). Of composers predating modern psychiatry, Gustav Mahler is known to have consulted Sigmund Freud although it's uncertain whether he would have met clinical standards for depression. Tchaikovsky is a somewhat more likely candidate, with several mental breakdowns and a suicide attempt to his credit.


Re Glenn Gould, he was not diagnosed with any mental disorders—and not only lived during a time when such diagnoses were possible, but evidently had hypochondriac tendencies and took a lot of care with his health. I would be very surprised if he experienced mental illness symptoms and didn't seek out a specialist to have them diagnosed. He might have just been addicted to painkillers. >.>

Interesting and knowledgable post. I think Rachmaninov also consulted Freud after the shambolic first performance of the First Symphony. Some commentators have attributed the fact that there even is a Second Piano Concerto to the consultation with Freud.

Personally, I think its very encouraging to see what people have achieved, despite having very major problems and setbacks. And ultimately, I suppose, we all have our problems - no one is the 'ideal'.

[Mahlerian]

Of composers predating modern psychiatry, Gustav Mahler is known to have consulted Sigmund Freud although it's uncertain whether he would have met clinical standards for depression.

He was certainly in the midst of a breakdown at the time, after having discovered his wife's affair (when Gropius accidentally sent him a letter).  Working on the Tenth Symphony at that moment, he began to write Alma effusive declarations of love on a near-daily basis and acted very strangely all-around.

None of this was normal for him, and it was brought on by the events of that particular summer, but he recovered well enough to conduct the premiere of the Eighth Symphony in Munich followed by the first part of the New York Philharmonic season, until February when he began to decline from the illness that would kill him a few months later.

[Cato]

Interesting and knowledgable post. I think Rachmaninov also consulted Freud after the shambolic first performance of the First Symphony. Some commentators have attributed the fact that there even is a Second Piano Concerto to the consultation with Freud.

Not Freud, but a doctor named Nicolai Dahl:

Rachmaninoff, in his memoirs (Rachmaninoff's Recollections, told to Oskar von Riesemann), tells the story:

My relations had told Dr. Dahl that he must at all costs cure me of my apathetic condition and achieve such results that I would again begin to compose. Dahl asked what manner of composition they desired and had received the answer, 'A concerto for pianoforte,' for this I had promised to the people in London and had given it up in despair. Consequently I heard the same hypnotic formula repeated day after day while I lay half asleep in my armchair in Dr. Dahl's study, 'You will begin to write your concerto ....You will work with great facility ...The concerto will be of excellent quality ....' It was always the same, without interruption. Although it may sound incredible, this cure really helped me. Already at the start of the summer, I was composing once more. The material accumulated, and new musical ideas began to stir within me - many more than I needed for my concerto. By autumn I had completed two movements (the Andante and the Finale) ...These I played that same season at a charity concert conducted by Sikti .... with gratifying success .... By the spring I had finished the first movement (Moderate) ...and felt that Dr. Dahl's treatment had strengthened my nervous system to a miraculous degree. Out of gratitude I dedicated my Second Concerto to him.

See:

http://www.brooksidecenter.com/remembering_dr_dahl.htm

[Gaspard de la nuit]

No, I am not saying that it is not real.
But if one looks a little bit into the history of psychiatry one cannot escape the impression that in certain times very particular illnesses have been frequently diagnosed, only to disappear almost without a trace a few decades later. I read a fascinating scholarly article on this some time ago but I cannot find the link now. In any case, the history of psychiatry and psychology does not convince me that in all these cases we simply "know it better" today. It is too soft and too young a science, too enmeshed with political attitudes, weltanschauungen and also institutions to think that it would simply go for the truth and nothing but the truth.
(I did not want to open that can of worms but one of the most blatant examples is obviously our changed attitude to homosexuality and other paraphilias that were treated as "perversions" until a few decades ago.)

I did not say that all those Asperger diagnoses were wrong. I said I would be surprised if it turned out later that quite a few cases were due to an inability to accept "normal" spleens and the desire to treat anything somewhat deviant as some kind of pathological condition. And introversion in a almost pathologically extrovert (everyone a saleman of oneself) society might be one character trait that is pathologized.

Maybe my example was poorly chosen.
But it can hardly be denied that we pathologize a lot of behaviors or character traits that seem to be either new or exploded in prevalence. E.g. Attention deficit disorder, all kinds of learning disabilities, all kinds of distorted self-perception disorders, whatever. Maybe most of these people really need treatment and meds. But I have the strong suspicion that there are a lot of other factors at work here. I am far from an expert and it would take us too far afield. But the eagerness with which such psychiatric conditions are ascribed to famous persons of the past is certainly not founded on facts and serious research.

As someone with personal experience, you cannot compare ADD with the autistic spectrum.  While it's true that it's currently unknown why the sudden increase in diagnoses has taken place, it's impossible to deny its existence.  Some claim it was always there but under-diagnosed in the past, others (including myself) believe it may have something to do with the steroids that are so commonly injected into the animals that we eat.  It's still be researched.  But autism is not "all in the head" like depression, ADD, OCD, etc.  You can make the argument that those other disorders are being over-diagnosed.  Especially when you have Pfizer salesmen influencing doctors in their decision processes.  But autism does not necessarily get medicated.  (You can medicate each and every side-effect of the disorder but not the disorder itself.)  For instance, we do not medicate my son.  Instead he receives several different types of therapy including speech therapy, occupational therapy, social coping skills and much more. 

At the end of the day though, I think it's important to consider that most of the people that are getting diagnosed are actively looking for help.  Nobody is getting diagnosed against their will.  And if someone comes to a medical professional seeking help, they are not likely to be turned away.  And they definitely should not be discouraged from finding happiness just because certain people find it annoying.

[Androcles]

Not Freud, but a doctor named Nicolai Dahl:

See:

http://www.brooksidecenter.com/remembering_dr_dahl.htm

Ok, thanks. I stand corrected. 

[zamyrabyrd]

Isn't Schumann the classic case here, as a (probable) manic depressive who (probably) died of syphilis? People said he would do nothing for months and then suddenly write a symphony in a few days....

Some say he had a brain tumor.

[relm1]

As someone with personal experience, you cannot compare ADD with the autistic spectrum.  While it's true that it's currently unknown why the sudden increase in diagnoses has taken place, it's impossible to deny its existence.  Some claim it was always there but under-diagnosed in the past, others (including myself) believe it may have something to do with the steroids that are so commonly injected into the animals that we eat.  It's still be researched.  But autism is not "all in the head" like depression, ADD, OCD, etc. You can make the argument that those other disorders are being over-diagnosed.  Especially when you have Pfizer salesmen influencing doctors in their decision processes.  But autism does not necessarily get medicated.  (You can medicate each and every side-effect of the disorder but not the disorder itself.)  For instance, we do not medicate my son.  Instead he receives several different types of therapy including speech therapy, occupational therapy, social coping skills and much more. 

At the end of the day though, I think it's important to consider that most of the people that are getting diagnosed are actively looking for help.  Nobody is getting diagnosed against their will.  And if someone comes to a medical professional seeking help, they are not likely to be turned away.  And they definitely should not be discouraged from finding happiness just because certain people find it annoying.

I mostly agree with your post, but depression, ADD, OCD, etc., are not just "all in your head" as you allude to.  These can be photographed by brain imaging and have patterns that don't resemble each other.  I would also say the increase in these being diagnosed is simply because diagnostics is better than it used to be.  For example the first cases of shell shock were 1916 during WWI.  Does that mean no one suffered PTSD before that or did they put a name around a common set of symptoms?  Today, shell shock is a whole set of refined disorders including postconcussional syndrome, post traumatic stress, acute stress disorder, etc.  Diagnostics and treatment has gotten better so it would seem there is a higher % of this afflicted where in reality, in WWI, most of those unless showing extreme symptoms were undiagnosed.

[Ugh!]

On the other hand, you have to realize that Mozart had more training in music as a preteen than the average musician gets by the time they finish college.  He grew up in a family where he was always surrounded by music, played multiple instruments, was taught theory and practice (and everything else) by his father, who was an accomplished non-genius.

And given that upbringing, no wonder he behaved child-like later in life. More recently seen in Michael Jackson. Lost childhoods leave their marks, although childhood as we imagine it is a modern invention...

[Gaspard de la nuit]

I mostly agree with your post, but depression, ADD, OCD, etc., are not just "all in your head" as you allude to.  These can be photographed by brain imaging and have patterns that don't resemble each other.  I would also say the increase in these being diagnosed is simply because diagnostics is better than it used to be.  For example the first cases of shell shock were 1916 during WWI.  Does that mean no one suffered PTSD before that or did they put a name around a common set of symptoms?  Today, shell shock is a whole set of refined disorders including postconcussional syndrome, post traumatic stress, acute stress disorder, etc.  Diagnostics and treatment has gotten better so it would seem there is a higher % of this afflicted where in reality, in WWI, most of those unless showing extreme symptoms were undiagnosed.

Yes, but then again most patients do not actually receive brain scans to diagnose depression or ADD, they fill out a questionnaire.  At least, that's how it is done in the States. 

Regardless, I want to make it clear that I did not mean to belittle other mental disorders in any way.  I agree that "all is the head" was a bad choice of words.  I was just trying to emphasize the difference between commonly diagnosed mental disorders and being on the autistic spectrum.  I could go to my family doctor and talk her into giving me a prescription for an anti-depressant, but she's not gonna diagnose me with autism until I get some serious testing done.

[relm1]

Yes, but then again most patients do not actually receive brain scans to diagnose depression or ADD, they fill out a questionnaire.  At least, that's how it is done in the States. 

Regardless, I want to make it clear that I did not mean to belittle other mental disorders in any way.  I agree that "all is the head" was a bad choice of words.  I was just trying to emphasize the difference between commonly diagnosed mental disorders and being on the autistic spectrum.  I could go to my family doctor and talk her into giving me a prescription for an anti-depressant, but she's not gonna diagnose me with autism until I get some serious testing done.

That is my point though, it is not diagnosed properly most of the time and that is why there is a seemingly boom in diagnosis.  The idea of a medical condition is in someones head is very destructive and you are contributing to it because those who have PTSD will prove you and others wrong.  It is really a problem you place on the victim like saying that rape was invited.  It very much hurts the victim by generalizing as you do though society might not have caught up.   

[Gaspard de la nuit]

That is my point though, it is not diagnosed properly most of the time and that is why there is a seemingly boom in diagnosis.  The idea of a medical condition is in someones head is very destructive and you are contributing to it because those who have PTSD will prove you and others wrong.  It is really a problem you place on the victim like saying that rape was invited.  It very much hurts the victim by generalizing as you do though society might not have caught up.   

Slow down there, I agreed that my terminology was wrong and I did not mean to give offense.  About a week ago, the consensus on this thread was that contemporary medicine was over-diagnosing most mental disorders, including autism/Asperger's.  And for the record, I never singled out PTSD, so there's really no need to point the finger.  I was just standing up for a condition that I happen to have experience with.  I do not have experience with PTSD and never claimed that I did, nor did I challenge it's existence.