Luigi Nono

[MDL]

I've got the Mode Records recording of A floresta è jovem e cheja de vida , but I wish DG would issue their version on CD. I had a tape recording of the LP that I played to death as a teenager. The new recording doesn't have anything like the impact.

[Don Giovanni]

That pun was intended to be there..he's a big nono to me. So I'm saying I'm going back to Mahler's music.

I completely understood what you said. I was asking if you minded explaining your dislike of Nono.

[uffeviking]

He's a big nono to me.

Back to Mahler.

Resurrection Time!

Bonehelm do you know that Luigi Nono[/b] was an ardent admirer of Gustav Mahler? I was not aware of it either until this afternoon when I was watching my latest DVD purchase A Trail on the Water. At the beginning of a segment there were those two notes making me mutter "That's Mahler's 1st". I could not see the connection with this and the wonderful documentary on EuroArts about the trio of close friends: Abbado - Nono - Pollini.

I have tried Nono off and on for a number of years, was intrigued, but did not 'get' him. Then I saw this DVD and decided to give him one more try. I think I am getting closer to understanding him, especially hearing his two friends discussing and explaining him. In one of the previous posts the silences in Nono's music were mentioned - and not appreciated! - Abbado comes right out and claims most people do not know how to listen! There is something to hear during the silence.

Please, give Nono a chance if you are not yet familiar with him and if you do know and admire him, this DVD will increase your enjoyment of his work. 

[snyprrr]

I thought I had already posted here, huh.

As far as Fragment...Stille is concerned, the new version by the Quatuor Diotima (w/ Lachenmann!! No.2) is THE BEST BY FAR!!

The LaSalle is what it is, the Arditti gave up the crown to this version, and the MoscowSQ on ColLegno is unheard (though, how could it be better than this new one?). If there is another version, I can't remember.

Either way, this Assai release, with Lachenmann no less, is one of the greatest SQ recordings of High Modernism. The sound is perfect, and the playing might remind one of the JACKQuartet. The group does edge out the Arditti here; please, don't faint, it happens!! The Lachenmann, too, edges out the Arditti (yes, I sold both Arditti discs for this one!).

It just happens that I've been listening to Fragmente for a week lately, and, yes, it has all the good stuff. The "richocet" section towards the end of the first part is pretty cool. Also, the sinewy, slippery melodic cells are pretty rarified. I plan on really getting deeply into this piece in the near future (lots of dark, quiet listening). I've heard that Hugh Wood's No.3 is of a similar extra-musical inspiration (lots of "tracts" on the score).



I love any long form High Modernist SQ (uh...USUALLY, haha!!).

[petrarch]

I thought I had already posted here, huh.

As far as Fragment...Stille is concerned, the new version by the Quatuor Diotima (w/ Lachenmann!! No.2) is THE BEST BY FAR!!

The LaSalle is what it is, the Arditti gave up the crown to this version, and the MoscowSQ on ColLegno is unheard (though, how could it be better than this new one?). If there is another version, I can't remember.

Either way, this Assai release, with Lachenmann no less, is one of the greatest SQ recordings of High Modernism. The sound is perfect, and the playing might remind one of the JACKQuartet. The group does edge out the Arditti here; please, don't faint, it happens!! The Lachenmann, too, edges out the Arditti (yes, I sold both Arditti discs for this one!).

It just happens that I've been listening to Fragmente for a week lately, and, yes, it has all the good stuff. The "richocet" section towards the end of the first part is pretty cool. Also, the sinewy, slippery melodic cells are pretty rarified. I plan on really getting deeply into this piece in the near future (lots of dark, quiet listening). I've heard that Hugh Wood's No.3 is of a similar extra-musical inspiration (lots of "tracts" on the score).



I love any long form High Modernist SQ (uh...USUALLY, haha!!).

If you really enjoy it, then you should get the score and spend time on each of the Hölderlin fragments; it's a unique experience.

I'll have to get that new version, thanks for the recommendation.

I'll have to get that new version.

[kentel]

Discussion from the Sciarrino thread

Well, close results aren't enough to establish a causal link (as much as wildly different results aren't enough to prove the opposite).

Well, that's a philosophical question Actually I don't know. I'm not sure for Cage and Feldman : I find the String Quartet or the Postcards from Heaven quite "pre-feldmanian" in many ways.

But you may be right however;  maybe Scelsi did not influence Nono. This kind of music writing was in the air at that time :  Scelsi's 4 Pieces on a single note and Nono's Coro di Didone are from 1958,  Cerha's Spiegel from 1960 and Ligeti's Atmospheres from 1961. 

Klang Komposition has a well-defined meaning, and to me it has nothing to do with what Nono, Lachenmann and even Scelsi did. Again, it is a kind of composition that emerged in the 60s, as a reaction against serialism. Cerha is a good example (see the awesome Spiegel cycle, for instance), along with the textural stuff by Penderecki (e.g. Anaklasis, Emanationen) and most of Ligeti's masterpieces of that decade (e.g. Apparitions, Atmosphères). [...]

As I said above, you are probably using another definition of Klang Komposition. Perhaps because of the use of extended playing techniques, the timbral variety and the free use of "noise"?

Maybe I do, but I can't tell as long as I don't know your own definition of Klang Komposition, and especially the difference you see between Klang Komposition and spectralism. For me it's very dim; both conceive music not as a succession or superposition of notes but as a succession or a superposition of effects.

The political aspect is inextricable from the work. That's what makes Nono's sound world deep in meaning and intent.

If that was true, I would hate his music. Thank God, music is the only art which has nothing to do with "meaning" nor "intent".

In any case, this discussion should probably move to a different thread; we don't want to hijack it and take the focus away from Sciarrino .

Done

--Gilles

[petrarch]

Maybe I do, but I can't tell as long as I don't know your own definition of Klang Komposition, and especially the difference you see between Klang Komposition and spectralism. For me it's very dim; both conceive music not as a succession or superposition of notes but as a succession or a superposition of effects.

Hmmm, not exactly; that's just like saying that the difference between tonal music and serialism is very dim, because both are a succession or superposition of notes.

Couple of random search results:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klangkomposition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_music

If that was true, I would hate his music. Thank God, music is the only art which has nothing to do with "meaning" nor "intent".

Has nothing to do? Perhaps you mean can have nothing to do, as in e.g. absolute music. Meaning and intent cannot be denied across the board--unless you are being deliberately blind to the subtext in most western music.

[kentel]

Hmmm, not exactly; that's just like saying that the difference between tonal music and serialism is very dim, because both are a succession or superposition of notes.

That's a bit far-fetched... there is no comparison between the quantities of works you can write (and actually were written) with succession or superposition of notes than without.

Has nothing to do? Perhaps you mean can have nothing to do, as in e.g. absolute music. Meaning and intent cannot be denied across the board--unless you are being deliberately blind to the subtext in most western music.

No no, you understood me well : it has nothing to do, objectively. When you listen to  La Lontananza you don't go straight to the conclusion that the guy was a member of the Italian Communist Party.  Music has no meaning, that's a fact ! And if not, I'd be glad to read a demonstration of the contrary...

Afterwards one can interpretate, analyze, learn about the intentions of the composer, say "there he meant that and there this". In the case of Nono I prefere to ignore, as I find all his commentaries around his own compositions stupid and preposterous, in most cases (but this is subjective). I just consider him as a very talented composer, certainly one of the best of the XXth century for his exceptional sense of sound.

On the other hand, I can understand your interest in the meaning that he intented to convey through his works, as it really was his intention. But music does not convey any meaning, whatever he believed. And I don't hear anything of the political ideas he defended in any of his works. And nobody does, because it is simply impossible.

--Gilles

[petrarch]

No no, you understood me well : it has nothing to do, objectively. When you listen to  La Lontananza you don't go straight to the conclusion that the guy was a member of the Italian Communist Party.  Music has no meaning, that's a fact ! And if not, I'd be glad to read a demonstration of the contrary...

Afterwards one can interpretate, analyze, learn about the intentions of the composer, say "there he meant that and there this". In the case of Nono I prefere to ignore, as I find all his commentaries around his own compositions stupid and preposterous, in most cases (but this is subjective). I just consider him as a very talented composer, certainly one of the best of the XXth century for his exceptional sense of sound.

On the other hand, I can understand your interest in the meaning that he intented to convey through his works, as it really was his intention. But music does not convey any meaning, whatever he believed. And I don't hear anything of the political ideas he defended in any of his works. And nobody does, because it is simply impossible.

We're now at the stage where we're splitting hairs and discussing the finer shades of grey of stricter or looser terminology and semantics.

I never said one would conclude Nono was a member of the Communist Party from listening to his works (maybe if you listen to all his works). What I meant was that it is worthwhile taking the message into consideration (say, of Guai ai gelidi mostri, or Quando stanno morendo, or Y entonces comprendió, to choose a few at random). That gives you the context for Nono's move towards a more contemplative (and I would add, disillusioned) approach in his last decade, as opposed to the interventionist and engaged take he had until then; for his appreciation for Hölderlin; and also the prevalent Antonio Machado quote.

My use of meaning and intent did not imply that they were intrinsic to the music in the abstract; my point was that they are clearly part of the message put forth by the composer, and the musical work is made up of the whole package. Obviously, there are many extra-musical elements and references, and one needs to be familiar with history, politics, literature and poetry to fully grasp that whole package. But that is par for the course in works of art, some are less deep, others are more literal, yet others are totally and deliberately ambiguous. It's all in the meaning and intent.

Now I dare you to try and not find any meaning when you hear a choir singing Requiem aeternam dona eis , in much the same way that when you listen to La fabbrica illuminata, the Epitaffio for Lorca and quite a few other works you will know what they are all about. Is there any shadow of doubt left by a title such as Ricorda cosa ti hanno fatto in Auschwitz?

[kentel]

I never said one would conclude Nono was a member of the Communist Party from listening to his works (maybe if you listen to all his works). What I meant was that it is worthwhile taking the message into consideration (say, of Guai ai gelidi mostri, or Quando stanno morendo, or Y entonces comprendió, to choose a few at random). That gives you the context for Nono's move towards a more contemplative (and I would add, disillusioned) approach in his last decade, as opposed to the interventionist and engaged take he had until then; for his appreciation for Hölderlin; and also the prevalent Antonio Machado quote.

My use of meaning and intent did not imply that they were intrinsic to the music in the abstract;

Ok; we agree there 

my point was that they are clearly part of the message put forth by the composer, and the musical work is made up of the whole package. Obviously, there are many extra-musical elements and references, and one needs to be familiar with history, politics, literature and poetry to fully grasp that whole package. But that is par for the course in works of art, some are less deep, others are more literal, yet others are totally and deliberately ambiguous. It's all in the meaning and intent.

I agree with the fact that the more you know, the more you understand of the intentions of the composer and in a way the deeper you go within the work. That's actually what I try to do. My problem is that I don't like Nono's discourse for many reasons (and it has more to do with its moralising, bombastic and abstractive tone than with anything else), I don't like Hölderlin's poetry either, but I do like Nono's music. That's why I think that there is no necessary connection between music and ideas.

Now I dare you to try and not find any meaning when you hear a choir singing Requiem aeternam dona eis , in much the same way that when you listen to La fabbrica illuminata, the Epitaffio for Lorca and quite a few other works you will know what they are all about. Is there any shadow of doubt left by a title such as Ricorda cosa ti hanno fatto in Auschwitz?

There is the question of works with sung texts; I have no definitive answer; that's a difficult question... I think I would agree. But these are really very ideological and engagés works; a very rare thing in classical music.

--Gilles

[CD]

Time for a revive I think.

For a time I thought that Nono's music would never grow on me, but I've recently gone back to his music and have been listening to this disc this week:



Remarkable stuff. The early Due Esspressioni seems to be an extension of Webern's muted dynamics and constantly shifting instrumental color. There are some really unique instrument doublings in the latter half of the piece.

A Carolo Scarpa is surprisingly Scelsi-like, gravitating around a single tone and alternating stretches of silence with exclamations from the orchestra (with a hefty percussion battery).

Post-Praeludium is scored for tuba and live electronics, but is surprisingly delicate and quite beautiful really. The actions of the player come back as echoes and eventually the lines pile up, weave across and interact with each other. Very ghostly.

"fragmente-stille" is famous. I've heard the Arditti recording but it's been probably four years, so I couldn't compare, but I remember the piece as being extremely static and dull — so funny how our perceptions change. There is so much drama in this piece and I find it excitingly varied and engaging. Need to hear the other recordings.

Where to next?

[petrarch]

Where to next?

If you want more orchestral-group works, No hay caminos, hay que caminar... and Caminantes... Ayacucho are good choices.

For works in the vein of the string quartet and Post-Prae-Ludium there's a bunch I really like, such as Omaggio a György Kurtág, Guai ai gelidi mostri and A Pierre, Dell'Azzurro Silenzio, Inquietum, all for ensemble and live electronics. The violin duo "Hay que caminar" sognando has the same kind of sonority than the string quartet, plus it was Nono's last work. My own favourite among all is probably La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura for violin and 8-track tape.

There are also a few worthwhile tape works from the 60s, Contrappunto dialettico alla mente, La fabbrica illuminata and Y entonces comprendió.

[CD]

Thank you! I think I will look for the orchestral works first.

[not edward]

I haven't seen the score, so can't be sure of this, but I've heard from musicians who've performed the work that the BPO/Abbado performance is rather sloppy and cuts a lot of rhythmic corners to make the work easier to play. With that and the issues with the spoken inserts, one can only hope for a new commercial recording of this work--in the meantime I find Abbado certainly demonstrates why Il canto sospeso has consistently been spoken of alongside Gruppen and Le marteau sans maitre.

I know that if I could only save one of those works, it would be the Nono one.

[not edward]

Say "yes" to thread necromancy... I found a rather interesting transcription of a Japanese symposium on Nono's work here: http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic027/html/128e.html

[petrarch]

New Nono album .. (has anyone heard it?)

Wow, a recording of Risonanze erranti, at last... I have a bootleg copy, but will most definitely order this CD!

[not edward]

Now this is excellent news: Risonanze erranti was surely about the most important unrecorded Nono work.

[petrarch]

Got this in the mail today. It will be part of my saturday morning listening.

[karlhenning]

Cool.

[petrarch]

Got this in the mail today. It will be part of my saturday morning listening.

This recording of the elusive Risonanze erranti does not disappoint. Like many of Nono's late works, where sounds inhabit a rarefied world at the lower limits of hearing, this work benefits greatly from the pristine studio recording, allowing the subtle timbral variations to be heard perfectly, contrasting with the low quality of the live bootleg recording I previously had.

Risonanze erranti shares the same sound world of Omaggio a Kurtág, which is not surprising given their chronology and that the central instruments are the same--the contralto/mezzo-soprano syllables thrown into echoing spaces, the airy notes of the flute and tuba complementing the voice. But there are two key differences: The use of percussion, with bongos struck with sticks that violently cut through the setting of the voice and instruments, and the long silences that frame each group of sounds and over which bright, pure, resonating crotales ring freely. This results in a much more austere, fractured and pensive piece than the smoother, more peaceful Omaggio a Kurtág.

In all, this is an excellent rendition of the piece, filling a long-standing gap in the list of available recordings of Luigi Nono's works from his last decade.