Luigi Nono

[petrarch]

Watch me draw petrarch out with the Nono Thread (tee hee )

Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of Risonanze erranti, I am content.

[snyprrr]

Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of Risonanze erranti, I am content.

Made ya look!

Any New Composer discoveries?

[petrarch]

Made ya look!

Any New Composer discoveries?

Gérard Zinsstag (e.g. Innanzi) and Walter Zimmermann (e.g. Ursache und Vorwitz and Distentio), as mentioned in the 1950-2000 thread.

[snyprrr]

Nothing new this side of the music world... After the release of Risonanze erranti, I am content.

I'm bringing up Nono,... the ooother Italian Composer of High Modernism that I have problems with. I'm just looking over his Works List (NonoWorld), and I'm just not finding much that I DESIRE for. Sure, I'll check it out for research purposes, but I remember having that Wergo disc with 'Bastiana', and early stuff, and I think even a tape piece, and I just thought it was the dreariest thing ever (at the time- but, I've always had problems here).

Now, I do have most all of Nono that I do care for (SQ for one, obviously- love it!), so it's not that. I just look at all those pieces with 'live electronic' and my ears glaze over. I've heard sooome of it (like the tuba bit), and, maybe I just come from a more technological generation, but I feel I'd rather get all that stuff elsewhere (generally, meaning, outside of the 'ComposerWorld'). Eh, it's mMonday, maybe I'm just whining?

I am interested in any Teldec recording of music I don't care for (Zimmermann, Nono), so, I'm willing. I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...

Also, Nono's not my go-to guy for tape pieces, either. (I dooo like Maderna here, and Xenakis) Of course, I haven't heard much, but, maybe it's the fear that Nono's going to be suffused with politics, and I'd rather have Roger wwaters for that!


eh... what am I getting at? What should I do?

[ritter]

I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...

Snyprrr, you can get the "opera" (Prometeo) in this readily available version:


[asin]B000VKW79G[/asin]

I own the EMI version (I did get it when it came out  ), but haven't listened to it for ages...At first, I thought it was the coolest thing on earth. Then, some years later, I was thinking more "this is kinda boring"  ...but, well, I should revisit it (when I'm in the right mood for it)...

A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun  :.

I myself am a big fan of the early, strictly serial / Darmstadt Nono: Variazione Canoniche, Polifonica—monodia—rítmica, Der rote Mantel, Il Canto sospeso... The later compositions I find are a bit of an uphill struggle for me  (but one I am usually willing to engage in).

[snyprrr]

Snyprrr, you can get the "opera" (Prometeo) in this readily available version:


[asin]B000VKW79G[/asin]

I own the EMI version (I did get it when it came out  ), but haven't listened to it for ages...At first, I thought it was the coolest thing on earth. Then, some years later, I was thinking more "this is kinda boring"  ...but, well, I should revisit it (when I'm in the right mood for it)...

A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun  :.

I myself am a big fan of the early, strictly serial / Darmstadt Nono: Variazione Canoniche, Polifonica—monodia—rítmica, Der rote Mantel, Il Canto sospeso... The later compositions I find are a bit of an uphill struggle for me  (but one I am usually willing to engage in).

Well, obviously 'Scarpa' and 'Tarkovsky' pose no problems to anyone that I know of. The String Quartet poses no problems... for anyone! For me, the 'Strictly Serial' stuff sounds like the Total Serialism like I hear in others, so, I'm cool with that stuff.


As I spent the day reading about Nono, my overwhelming reaction was to... bitch slap him. Maybe I just have no patience for the 'Sincere Communist' routine,... uh, it's just so overbearing like an Inquisitor, I mean, who said Commies weren't Totalitarian F*** Wads of the Highest Order?- what?, that generation of Italians couldn't see the 'Old Boss Like the New Boss' Syndrome? Like, the whole Age of Love Affair with Communism is over, isn't it? And now we're seeing some grande olde Utopia furr shurr,... thanks Sincere Communist Drones of the Post-War Era, thanks!

I mean, these people... ok, I guess we all thought smoking was fine back then, so, whaddaya goinna do?? But f***- what a bunch of ideological craaaap!! And, sorry to all you Che lovers out there, wuhh wuhh... ack!

'A Tragedy of Listening' huh? I'll give you a tragedy- how DAAARE you write music that is so inaudible that you have to be in some kind of commie hyperbaric chamber- you elitist!- so that one can hear how fanatically you have fawned over ever dynamic marking and how everything is perfect and... bla bla bla... make some music I CAN HEAR!!

Flippin' Scelsi made music you could hHEAR!! AAAAHHHHH!!!!! It infuriates me no end- like James on Cage!! (he was prolly another patsy)


wait a mi nute....


must calm down





ok, much better!



Anyhow, what really pisses me off is how he wrote something as violent as 'Luz' and then has the NERVE to TELL us to listen. AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I mean, the flippin hypocracy- huh? what? ... no?

And in EVERY picture I feel like he has that Look-At-Me-I'm-Just-Such-A-Righteous-Dude-...-Dude that I just want to alight on him, tumbling down the hill in a welter of blows.

I would put him in some torture environment and COMPEL him to write some NICE MUSIC!!!!!!!


I AM getting tired of the Ugly Music Italians- and, haha, there's a direct link to Malipiero, as if these guys took his most crabby piece, added a 10X Solution, and started from there.


HOW DAAARE YOU TELL ME TO LISTEN YOU... YOU...



... I'm exhausted...



0:) 0:) 0:)
0:) 0:) 0:)

I am absolutely guilty of no crime!




ok, so, back to Nono... what was the question?

[petrarch]

I just look at all those pieces with 'live electronic' and my ears glaze over. I've heard sooome of it (like the tuba bit),

The tuba piece is not the most interesting of his live electronic works. It's my favorite period in Nono's output. Try Omaggio a Kurtag, or Quando stanno morendo, or Guai ai gelidi mostri.

I guess I'd like to hear that EMI Opera- I mean, it can't be that horrible, haha?!! Wish I'd gotten that when it came out...

I have both releases of Prometeo. The EMI is quite good, it's visceral and organic. The Col Legno is also quite good, but it is clean, pristine, clinical.

maybe it's the fear that Nono's going to be suffused with politics, and I'd rather have Roger wwaters for that!

Give it a listen and leave expectations and prejudice at the door.

[snyprrr]

The tuba piece is not the most interesting of his live electronic works. It's my favorite period in Nono's output. Try Omaggio a Kurtag, or Quando stanno morendo, or Guai ai gelidi mostri.

I have both releases of Prometeo. The EMI is quite good, it's visceral and organic. The Col Legno is also quite good, but it is clean, pristine, clinical.

Give it a listen and leave expectations and prejudice at the door.

huh boy, wait till you read my giant rant, haha!!

[snyprrr]

I still will give Late Nono- those ensemble piece, a second chance (I did those Montaigne when they came out, but was definitely not there at the time).

[petrarch]

A friend of mine who's very much into this repertoire attended the dress rehearsal of a performance of Prometeo given in Madrid some years ago: he was telling me that live, with the distraction of seeing the musicians deal with the score and observing the electronic manipulation, it was rather fun  :.

I have attended Prometeo live and a number of performances of his other live electronics works. The sound projection and transformation needs to be heard in concert to truly be appreciated. It's ... wonderful.

[petrarch]

huh boy, wait till you read my giant rant, haha!!

As I said, leave prejudice at the door . His late period is much more contemplative, inward-looking, even suffused with disappointment in communism (search for e.g. the meaning behind the Guai ai gelidi mostri title and the Antonio Machado quote that pervades the post-SQ output). But you would need to dig under the surface and notice the clear demarcation from his period of fervorous engagement.

[snyprrr]

As I said, leave prejudice at the door . His late period is much more contemplative, inward-looking, even suffused with disappointment in communism (search for e.g. the meaning behind the Guai ai gelidi mostri title and the Antonio Machado quote that pervades the post-SQ output). But you would need to dig under the surface and notice the clear demarcation from his period of fervorous engagement.

I get yer drifft. Xenakis too became disillusioned (and BOY! can you hear it in his music), so, yea, I can drench myself in Nono's pain! Perhaps that where i also "hear" Zimmermann?  Perhaps Nono is a bit like the Apostle Paul,...

Perhaps it would have been nice to have an Opera about the True Workings of Things, but, hmm,... who is the most 'expose' Composer? Wagner?!


... but now we have a whole new generation believing the lie...

I understand about "listening", and not Emotionally Responding to the "headlines" that polarize. I mean, I agree, there IS nuance,... but ppppppp? Come on!! That's just as bad as a 'headline'! I know that there was a time when the dichotomy between barely audible and the apocalypse was very prevalent. I preferred how both Xenakis (loud) and Feldman (soft) kept to one working dynamic. (and no, we're not even going to mention Mr.K)


All right, ... just winding down my Nono evening,... havent put the Gielen in yet, forgot the SQ at the house. I will attempt some YT, perhaps the 'Kurtag'.

So,... why is it that Nono isn't considered a Spectralist?

[snyprrr]

did you just change your name???

[not edward]

I have attended Prometeo live and a number of performances of his other live electronics works. The sound projection and transformation needs to be heard in concert to truly be appreciated. It's ... wonderful.

That I can believe, though I've yet to hear any of his electroacoustic work live. Even on disc, the electronic effects can be extraordinary (some of the manipulated flute sounds in Caminantes...Ayacucho absolutely blew me away on first listening, despite the limitations of the format).

[petrarch]

... but now we have a whole new generation believing the lie...

What lie? And as opposed to what truth?

I understand about "listening", and not Emotionally Responding to the "headlines" that polarize. I mean, I agree, there IS nuance,... but ppppppp? Come on!! That's just as bad as a 'headline'! I know that there was a time when the dichotomy between barely audible and the apocalypse was very prevalent.

Did you really misunderstand the meaning of "tragedy of listening"? Or are you too hung up on the potential Communist intentions in every note and every word Nono wrote?

So,... why is it that Nono isn't considered a Spectralist?

Easy: Because he didn't compose according to the precepts of Spectralism.

[snyprrr]

What lie? And as opposed to what truth?

Did you really misunderstand the meaning of "tragedy of listening"? Or are you too hung up on the potential Communist intentions in every note and every word Nono wrote?

Easy: Because he didn't compose according to the precepts of Spectralism.

The Lie: There is no Opera about BCCI!! And, until there is,... my point- if Nono can be duped, then, why can't a bunch of impressionable US kids be duped?


I know that there is a "general" 'Tragedy of Listening'- and I know then general meaning of it as it relates to the post-'50s- I mean, it's obvious that people listen less than they used to. But, I was also directly relating this to Nono's penchant for flippin outrageously loud cacophany- and THEN tells us there's a 'tragedy of listening'- I mean, I thought that was pretty funny. But, then, he gets all quiet,... ok. Maybe I lost my hearing listening to 'Luz' and can't HEAR your pppppp!!!!

I just seems the height of something that one of the most aurally violent Composers, right at the moment his audience's ears are ringing, switches up his style and asks people to quietly listen. Listen?m to what? That high pitched Eb ringing in their ears?? LOL!!


Frankly, I LIKE Nono. He seems like a sincere boy. The stories of his disastrous openings make me go 'awww'. (I'm not being cheeky) I'd like to know/read more about his personal life. But, how can you accuse me of looking for a communist under every rock with Nono when he himself is the communist patsy par excellence ? I mean, one day he's all gung ho, the next,... what?

Yea, I don't know the story, but, based on what's going on in this country I can only guess that Nono voted for Obama the second time, and now he's having second thoughts? What was it that Nono saw/heard that changed his mind?

btw- aren't the proles gonna want a little more melody than what Nono was offering? How do communist Composers keep from being coercive? "You WILL like this melody- it was written for our dear leader after all".

I mean, what NORMAL person would EVER listen to Nono (or any of the types we like)? If Nono suddenly became head of the Cimmunist Music Dept., what would the childrens' music experience look like then? Just curious


commies lie, and commies lied to Nono (I mean, it's that typically "duped leftie" thing that has gotten quite old lately in this country)

Name a Composer that the oil companies lied to. Who is the Most Fascist Composer Ever? I wonder if that Composer had the same temperament as Nono?




Maybe if Nono SMILED once in a while I wouldn't be suuch a prick! Cheer up, buddy,...

Curious as to how Nono would regard the Zio-nista Entity? How did he take to them? That would really be all I'd need to know. (my first thought is that he would be a rabid zionist)

Is Nono TELLING me to "calm down"?, cause you know how THAT works!

Oh those wacky Italians!


Hitler was a leftie, commies are a leftie,... I mean, what's NOT to like?? Dictators agree- gun control works!! (was Nono responsible for anyone's death?)




Anyhow, I'm not trying to start a fight. We can move on to Cage for a nice, reasoned discussion!

If I'm wrong, I'll be wrong til it's corrected.

[snyprrr]

I did let the YT 'Prometeo' run last night whilst I was doing other things. The impression it left me with was almost of a dreary hopelessness, a church without God,... I mean, if this is 'Sacred' Music, well, wow, pass the razor blades!!

And yes, it was pretty quiet, so I missed vast portions, but the tuttis.... it seems there was a lot of this kind of sound in the depressed '80s. But I wouldn't want to be resurrected to it!! Still, I'd like to hear it again, more closely.

Who is a Calvinist Composer?

[Karl Henning]

I did let the YT 'Prometeo' run last night whilst I was doing other things. The impression it left me with was almost of a dreary hopelessness, a church without God,... I mean, if this is 'Sacred' Music, well, wow, pass the razor blades!!

And yes, it was pretty quiet, so I missed vast portions, but the tuttis.... it seems there was a lot of this kind of sound in the depressed '80s. But I wouldn't want to be resurrected to it!! Still, I'd like to hear it again, more closely.

Who is a Calvinist Composer?

I don't often understand everything you write, but there are posts like this one which I enjoy reading nevertheless.

Do do that voodoo which you do so well . . . .

[snyprrr]

I don't often understand everything you write, but there are posts like this one which I enjoy reading nevertheless.

Do do that voodoo which you do so well . . . .

It has NOT worked on the fairer sex for quite a while now, whatever "it" is, haha!!




My point about the 'tragedy of listening'-

1) the GENERAL- this is as simple as not listening when told, Eat your peas! This has been going on forever.

2) This is where a political group thinks the general population isn't receiving their message because "we weren't explaining it well enough" (just like what we hear today from the lefties). So, does Nono dogmatically believe his Ideology and is just lamenting that people just don't "get it" (oh, we do)- "if we explained it better then they'd agree"?

Obviously I'm just blithering, but I would like to get to the bottom of Nono's deepest beliefs. Do the ends justify the means with him? (I'm assuming NOT- is that where his falling away came from, the knowledge of the murders behind the revolution?) Allende, yes yes... but I want MORE!!!

[snyprrr]

Look, just Post that pic of Nono pointing to his ears and I'll be happy!


Honestly, the man has suuuch an awesome face, don't you agree? He has that classic look, the most handsome forehead, the eyebrows, the nose and mouth, just a perfect face of authority. And yes, I judge him harshly for it!