Atonal and tonal music

[Karl Henning]

(* chortle *)

[millionrainbows]

Wow, that's Wagnerian drama if I ever saw it.

I just looked through the old threads and replied to some that I thought were interesting. I always see Debussy thrown up as being 'atonal' or as indistinguishable from Schoenberg, so I am clarifying the specific reasons why Debussy is not atonal, but just another exotic brand of tonality which is not diatonic/major/minor.

I see Wagner this way, too, as just another brand of tonality, not 'extended.'

[bwv 1080]

again, this just falls into semantics, but if one defines 'atonal' as music that lacks a clear tonal center then whole tone pieces like Voiles fits the description.

[Florestan]

I am clarifying the specific reasons why Debussy is not atonal

As if someone else besides you really cared about it...

[Madiel]

Wow, that's Wagnerian drama if I ever saw it.

I just looked through the old threads and replied to some that I thought were interesting. I always see Debussy thrown up as being 'atonal' or as indistinguishable from Schoenberg, so I am clarifying the specific reasons why Debussy is not atonal, but just another exotic brand of tonality which is not diatonic/major/minor.

I see Wagner this way, too, as just another brand of tonality, not 'extended.'

Except you've already been ON this thread a whole lot, way after November.

Unless you're claiming to be an entirely different person to the previous "millionrainbows", who before leaving has mysteriously changed to "PotashPie" but my memory is good enough to know who that was and the editing marks still show.

So the "I just replied to old threads" line is misleading. What you actually did is revive an argument you'd been heavily involved in for pages. As much I have sympathy for your arguments, I'm going to lose that sympathy if you play the wide-eyed innocent.

[millionrainbows]

again, this just falls into semantics, but if one defines 'atonal' as music that lacks a clear tonal center then whole tone pieces like Voiles fits the description.

For me, it's not just semantics. I see a clear difference between music like Debussy that is harmonically derived and thematic music like later Schoenberg.

Music that is harmonically derived is inherently tonal, since it uses scales and their harmonic implications to create "tonalities."

[millionrainbows]

As if someone else besides you really cared about it...

...and who might that person be?

[Florestan]

...and who might that person be?

Precisely my point.

[millionrainbows]

Except you've already been ON this thread a whole lot, way after November.
Unless you're claiming to be an entirely different person to the previous "millionrainbows", who before leaving has mysteriously changed to "PotashPie" but my memory is good enough to know who that was and the editing marks still show.

The truth is, I wanted to change my username, and the only way I could do it was to delete my account and re-apply. There's no conspiracy between me & Potash Pie.

So the "I just replied to old threads" line is misleading. What you actually did is revive an argument you'd been heavily involved in for pages. As much I have sympathy for your arguments, I'm going to lose that sympathy if you play the wide-eyed innocent.

This happens to be one of the threads I am interested in. I'm not trying to mislead anyone.

I just think that this is still a valid discussion about what is "atonal" and what is not, and judging by the newest replies, is still unclear to many people.
It's simple: music that is harmonically derived, i.e., uses scales to create an hierarchy of harmonic functions, is creating a "tonality" and is therefore not "atonal" but tonal in the general sense.

[millionrainbows]

Precisely my point.

What are you trying to say, exactly?

[Florestan]

What are you trying to say, exactly?

That pretty much nobody except yourself is interested in whether the music of this or that composer is tonal or atonal or anything else.

That being said, I'm over and out. See you in the ""What Are You Listening To" thread.

[millionrainbows]

That pretty much nobody except yourself is interested in whether the music of this or that composer is tonal or atonal or anything else.

Speak for yourself, but it's obvious to me that it's more than simply a matter of if something is "atonal or not," but the reasoning which leads there. I think this thread can be illuminating, for that reason.

[Florestan]

Speak for yourself,

That's what I always do.

it's obvious to me that it's more than simply a matter of if something is "atonal or not,"

To you, certainly --- to anyone else than you, doubtfully.

I think this thread can be illuminating

Think again.

[millionrainbows]

I'm not interesting in arguing or confronting, just the ideas, please.

[Florestan]

I'm not interesting in arguing or confronting, just the ideas, please.

Here's an idea: post about what you listen to and how you like (or not) the performance. It's strange, I know, but you could at least try.

[arpeggio]

I am really not an expert here and I do not have the time to go through every debate about atonal music here and in every classical music forum I have participated in.

It just seems to me that the entire debate concerning what is atonal is completely artificial.  The debate is usually generated by people who are hostile toward atonal music and are trying to generate rhetoric gobbledygook in order to invalidate it.  These are the same individuals who think classical music is dying and the big villain is Schoenberg.  If classical music is dying it is for other multiple reasons that have nothing to do with atonality.

My ears are flawed but they know what they considered to be atonal.  It works for me.

I find these discussions interesting and I like to follow them.  They do not determine what atonal music I like and what atonal music I dislike.  My favorite atonal composers include Carter, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Sessions, Riegger and many others.  I have seen nothing in the above that has altered my feelings for their music.

I have picked up a few tidbits over the years that help me play atonal music when I have to perform it.

[millionrainbows]

Here's an idea: post about what you listen to and how you like (or not) the performance. It's strange, I know, but you could at least try.

That's fine, but this is a theoretical issue as well, so it needs to be discussed in those terms. To me, tonal/atonal is not an exclusively subjective determination, but must necessarily involve a discussion of how the music in question was derived, from what considerations: harmonic or melodic/thematic.

[Madiel]

Arpeggio, THIS debate wasn't generated by anyone who was hostile to atonal music. It was generated by someone hostile to the word because they made exactly that assumption: that users of the word must be hostile.

So this an even bigger fuss about nothing than usual.

[arpeggio]

Arpeggio, THIS debate wasn't generated by anyone who was hostile to atonal music. It was generated by someone hostile to the word because they made exactly that assumption: that users of the word must be hostile.

So this an even bigger fuss about nothing than usual.

Well excuse me.  Your remarks are very, very unfair

I thought I clearly stated that I was referring to all of the discussions I have read or experienced over the years from two other classical music forums as well as this FORUM.  I also remember reading about this in some of the music history texts that I read in college.  This is also based on my many experiences as an amateur musician.  A few years ago I played with a group where some of the members objected to our programming Hindemith's Symphony in Bb for band.  They though that the work was too atonal, their word not mine.  (Note: It ended up being the most popular work on the concert.)  I was not critiquing this specific thread which I find interesting.  I though I was being clear about that.  I tried to explain myself as best I could.  Sorry if my observations are not good enough for some of the members.

[Madiel]

I wasn't trying to criticise you. I was saying that if you think these debates are artificial, this one is even more artificial.