Compositions with purely (or largely) indefinite pitch

[ahinton]

Notation, or written music is a large part of what music and music making is, it conveys all these things i'm talking about in written form, with often a higher degree of consciousness and thought .. especially as it relates to this forum which is largely based on a written notational tradition of music making & performance.

But not all music is written and not all music performances are of written works; think of all those organist improvisations, for starters!

[ahinton]

Notated music is one form of conveying music; there are other methods - oral transmisison for example, which is how much vernacular music is conveyed.  However any musician will tell you that the score only approximates the intention of the composer.  The music is produced when a performer interprets the score and the sound of the music is actualized in a performance.  His performance; each performance will be somewhat different, so the composition is an endless process of being realized as it is performed.

There is a wealth of music which is not notated, nor can some music be notated accurately or even crudely.

All true, of course.

[James]

A blank CD is actually a good idea.  A person could insert it and hit play and listen to the sounds in his room and outside his window for four and a half minutes, then turn it off.

See, James, you do get it.

We'd need a note or something coming with the package telling us this stuff. And pretty underwhelming .. I'd rather fill the blank CD with music.

[ahinton]

This is my point.

Then it is a pointless one because that does not a "collective" experience make; the "collectiveness" is represented by nothing more than the coincidental co-existence of audience members in one place at the same time.

[ahinton]

All you can accurately say is that you would not pay to hear 4'33".  It is a fact that the work is regularly scheduled for performance, e.g. on January 16, 2004, at the Barbican Centre in London, the BBC Symphony Orchestra gave the UK's first orchestral performance of this work. The performance was broadcast live on BBC Radio 3.

4′33″ has been recorded on several occasions: Frank Zappa recorded it as part of A Chance Operation: The John Cage Tribute, on the Koch label, 1993; in 2002, James Tenney performed 4′33″ at Rudolf Schindler's historic Kings Road House in celebration of the work's 50th anniversary.

In 2004, the work was voted to be number 40 in the ABC radio's Classic 100 piano countdown.

On December 5, 2010, an international simultaneous performance of Cage's 4′33″ took place involving over 200 performers, amateur and professional musicians, and artists. The global orchestra, conducted live by Bob Dickinson, former member of post-punk group Magazine, via video link, performed the piece in support of the Cage Against The Machine campaign to bring 4′33″ to Christmas number 1 in 2010. A second performance took place on December 12, 2010.

You can posture yourself as presenting a definitive opinion, but actually you are quite provincial in your attitude about the work and the amount of interest people, artists, musicians have in it.

Whilst all that is true insofar as it goes, a cult following alone does not a piece of music make!

[ahinton]

All true, but as John Cage has demonstrated a career as a composer can be achieved without basing his working processes on the formula you have described.

His teacher Arnold Schönberg described him not as a composer but as an inventor (and I think Schönberg knew a thing or three about composition and what makes a composer!)...

[James]

But not all music is written and not all music performances are of written works; think of all those organist improvisations, for starters!

Yea, I am fully aware of this. I play myself, and often improvise modes, thru changes, with recordings etc., etc. I even try to transcribe improvisations, solos .. to see their inner workings. Or buy books that do a much better job at this.

And many of the masters of written composition were also bad ass players/improvisers. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Liszt, Chopin etc.

[James]

This is true for any concert audience.  What is unique is that Cage staged "silence" for the audience to experience as opposed to a work in which a musician played the piano.  In this case, the audience was treated to the unique experience of hearing the sounds around them as the music while they were sitting in a concert hall, expecting to hear another piece of music performed from the stage.  The expectations of a concert experience are also part of the work.

That is different than a similar group of strangers sitting at the bus station.

"unique experience" should read, "no music, but sit there, awkwardly watch the performer on stage doing nothing  ..  and this is supposed to instantly trigger you to listen-to regular, incidental noises you've probably heard before" ...  

[James]

All true, but as John Cage has demonstrated a career as a composer can be achieved without basing his working processes on the formula you have described.

John isn't an exception to this, he tried to compose something via notation too.
A lot of it was arbitrarily constructed, he left his choices and given results to chance.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Hi James. You have posted several fallacies but I can tell that you have a firm view of what music is to you and that no one will really change it. I admire your steadfastness and I always love reading your posts about Stockhausen, Bach and other composers for whose music you have a great passion because they are nearly always insightful and very well informed. Sanantonio is doing his best to shed some light and disprove the fallacies that you have posted about Cage's merit as a composer. Personally I enjoy listening to Cage as I always have done and I think it would be very interesting to hear what you have found interesting or perhaps even enjoyable in his wide and varied oeuvre. Cage wrote quite a huge number of works which I am not even very familiar with which would be suitable for this thread. Do you have any suggestions?