Emotion and music

[Monsieur Croche]

I assume HIP is anathema to you. Am I wrong?

I don't get at all why you would make that assumption, since HIP is very much the way the music was conceived, using the instruments written for, etc.  I.e. it is more the real deal than not, and in my mind that goes to the heart of the music's essence; this is not being sentimental about history, but since HIP is what that older music was, and is, that is why I am a fan.  Your assumption is, then,  diametrically incorrect.

As usual as with any number of available numbers of performances, HIP or other, there are more and less convincing performances.  Some, I love, and though not a purist about it, I've found that some HIP performances are to my ears so convincing that I prefer to no longer want to hear those pieces done by an orchestra of contemporary instruments.  Sometimes, a good HIP recording is such a blast of fresh air that I liken it to the difference in what the Sistine Chapel ceiling mural looked like before and after it was cleaned. 

Two such occurrences in recent memory were:
1.)  Beethoven ~ Symphony No. 3 with John Eliot Gardiner, L'Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, a recording made in conjunction with the film by Simon Cellan Jones for BBC's Channel Four that re-enacted the preview performance of the piece in the home of one of Beethoven's patrons.  That performance used less strings than usual at the time, and though not the way Beethoven fully intended, now I really don't want to hear it any other way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuu-rd1HkYo

More stunningly revelatory for me was Brahms' first symphony with the same conductor and orchestra... this time with the usual full amount of instruments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrF7Luxwyw

I do draw a line through HIP when it comes to -- only -- solo harpsichord music.  I find it untenable for any but the briefest stretches of time.  The harpsichord was an innovation that brought a far greater amplitude, and 'replaced' the really remarkably quiet clavichord;  it also sacrificed all the touch sensitivity and expressiveness of the clavichord.  Harpsichord with at least a small handful of instruments sits in my ears quite well.  For solo harpsichord, I'm quite happy with a modern piano, and a player who sensibly stays and plays within the style.

[Florestan]

I don't get at all why you would make that assumption,

Because the HIP philosophy and practice are heavily contextualized, and in your previous post you stated your preference for as context-free a listening experience as possible in no uncertain terms:

I do argue for as much as is possible ignoring (or at least suspending) all the social and cultural contexts

I see no way of reconciling the above with the following:

HIP is very much the way the music was conceived, using the instruments written for, etc. I.e. it is more the real deall than not, and in my mind that goes to the heart of the music's essence; this is not being sentimental about history, but since HIP is what that older music was, and is, that is why I am a fan.

which is a frank admission of the fact that (1) context is actually very important, and (2) music has an essence which is dependent precisely on that context.

Your assumption is, then,  diametrically incorrect.

I am very surprised, honestly: your statements above flagrantly contradict what you wrote in your previous post, namely that you want your listening to happen in a contextual vacuum, and that music is just a bunch of notes without any essence whatsoever besides that.

I've found that some HIP performances are to my ears so convincing that I prefer to no longer want to hear those pieces done by an orchestra of contemporary instruments.

Yet another direct and blunt (self) refutation of your own "context-free listening" preference.

Beethoven ~ Symphony No. 3 with John Eliot Gardiner, L'Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, a recording made in conjunction with the film by Simon Cellan Jones for BBC's Channel Four that re-enacted the preview performance of the piece in the home of one of Beethoven's patrons.  That performance used less strings than usual at the time, and though not the way Beethoven fully intended, now I really don't want to hear it any other way.

This is a frank admission from your part that there is a composer's full intention behind a given piece of music --- but in this case I fail to understand how ignoring it altogether can provide a satisfying listening experience, an idea you have also stated in no uncertain terms:

I am a huge advocate of listening to any one piece of music for what it is, quite on its own and as unfettered as possible from the baggage of the cultural / social history of all of western art music

Well, the period instruments and the historically informed style of performance all draw heavily on the cultural and social history of western art music, so here again you contradict yourself flagrantly.

Otherwise, agreed: great movie and performance. Oh, btw: you must have noticed that the listening practice back then involved standing, walking around the room, even making a comment or two on the music while it was being played (not to mention the pints of beer that the principal cellist, iirc, ingurgitated liberally shortly before playing) --- would you agree with these practices being reinstated in our concert halls? If in the negative, why?

I do draw a line through HIP when it comes to -- only -- solo harpsichord music.  I find it untenable for any but the briefest stretches of time.  The harpsichord was an innovation that brought a far greater amplitude, and 'replaced' the really remarkably quiet clavichord;  it also sacrificed all the touch sensitivity and expressiveness of the clavichord.  Harpsichord with at least a small handful of instruments sits in my ears quite well.  For solo harpsichord, I'm quite happy with a modern piano, and a player who sensibly stays and plays within the style.

Although I don't mind listening to harpsichord for a good deal of time, I much prefer the piano --- to my ears it allows for a much clearer delineation of the different voices and a much clearer melodic line. But it's just me.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Stockhausen, Cage, Kurtag, Birtwistle, Harvey and Ferrari certainly. ...

Can you recommend some recordings of this (experimental vocal) music--I am not familiar with any of it. Thanks.

[Mandryka]

Stockhousen: Momente
Cage: Song Books
Birtwistle: The Moth Requiem
Ferrari: Presque Rien
Harvey: The Sunmmer Cloud's Awakening
Kurtag: Kafka Fragments

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Thanks. Are there any specific recordings you recommend?

[Mandryka]

Thanks. Are there any specific recordings you recommend?

For Momente I preferred the one with Kontarsky Bros. on Wergo, I think it's a different edition from the one from Stockhausen Verlag. For the Cage, I think I prefer the one with Lixenberg, Rose and Worby, though the one with Reinhold Friedl is exceptional too. For the Kurtag, get Csengery and Keller. There's no choice for the rest.

[Mandryka]

Yo Mandryka, what do you think of Aperghis' Recitations  and the Berio Sequenza for voice?

The Aperghis is fabulous, I forgot about it.  I rarely listen to the sequenzas, I'm not sure why.

I forgot one of the greatest, of you don't know it find it now: Hespos's Z.

I should have mentioned Cornelius Cardew's The Great Learning, Robert Ashley's  Wolfman and In Sara, Menken, Christ and Beethoven there were Men and Women. Also Nono's Prometheo, Holliger's Scardanelli Cycle, Ferneyhough's Transit

I probably should have mentioned Xenakis's Cendrées too I think. The expressiveness of the voice towards the end is primal.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

For Momente I preferred the one with Kontarsky Bros. on Wergo, I think it's a different edition from the one from Stockhausen Verlag. For the Cage, I think I prefer the one with Lixenberg, Rose and Worby, though the one with Reinhold Friedl is exceptional too. For the Kurtag, get Csengery and Keller. There's no choice for the rest.

Thanks, I will look forward to exploring these.  I'll put them on the pile and hopefully get to them within a decade (tons of unheard discs around here--not enough time in the day!)

[Florestan]

Bump, dedicated to Mr. Croche together with my best regards. 

It is sometimes argued that Karl Marx was not much of a "Marxist". Maybe. This article makes a very convincing case that Eduard Hanslick was not much of an "absolute-music" fanatic. 

http://ericsams.org/index.php/on-music/essays/miscellaneous/125-eduard-hanslick-1825-1904

[BasilValentine]

Bump, dedicated to Mr. Croche together with my best regards. 

It is sometimes argued that Karl Marx was not much of a "Marxist". Maybe. This article makes a very convincing case that Eduard Hanslick was not much of an "absolute-music" fanatic. 

http://ericsams.org/index.php/on-music/essays/miscellaneous/125-eduard-hanslick-1825-1904

The link you provided doesn't work for me. But the reception of Hanslick has tended to distort his thinking. It is commonly reported that he denied the expressive capacities of non-programmatic music. In fact, he didn't argue that absolute music can't or doesn't express emotion. He argued that emotions are not the subject of music, which is a significantly different thing. He did, however, deny that music can express cognitively complex emotions, a position which has seen modern challenges from philosophers Jerrold Levinson and Jenefer Robinson (with musicologist Gregory Karl).

[Florestan]

The link you provided doesn't work for me.

Can't figure out why. 

But the reception of Hanslick has tended to distort his thinking. It is commonly reported that he denied the expressive capacities of non-programmatic music. In fact, he didn't argue that absolute music can't or doesn't express emotion. He argued that emotions are not the subject of music, which is a significantly different thing. He did, however, deny that music can express cognitively complex emotions, a position which has seen modern challenges from philosophers Jerrold Levinson and Jenefer Robinson (with musicologist Gregory Karl).

Well, suffice it to say that he was a composer himself, in which quality he didn't compose any string quartets, symphonies or piano sonatas, he composed only Lieder. --- ie, as far from his beloved "absolute music" as one could get. 

[BasilValentine]

Can't figure out why. 

Well, suffice it to say that he was a composer himself, in which quality he didn't compose any string quartets, symphonies or piano sonatas, he composed only Lieder. --- ie, as far from his beloved "absolute music" as one could get. 

I can get to the site, I know where the essay is within it, but the site itself seems to have some problem?

Hanslick also made significant nods to musical expression and its symbolic/metaphoric meanings in a famous passage citing a hypothetical Adagio movement (In On the Musically Beautiful). And, strangest of all to some, is that he gave a positive review of at least one early Wagner opera, although I don't remember which one (Flying Dutchman?).