Eine Alpensinfonie / Alpine Symphony - your favourite version

[head-case]

Hm, well, I haven't heard it in awhile, but I really don't recall it being "horrible."  (I have the original, not the "Gold" version.)  My recalling it may have something to do with recalling the live experience, which of course was sensational. 

--Bruce

I have the original CD (the real original, in which the entire piece is in a single "track") which has sound typical of early DG digital recordings, too bright, dry and overbearing.  Not bad enough to totally distract me from the performance, which is very fine.

[bhodges]

I have the original CD (the real original, in which the entire piece is in a single "track") which has sound typical of early DG digital recordings, too bright, dry and overbearing.  Not bad enough to totally distract me from the performance, which is very fine.

Yes, that's the one.  (For the Haitink, I have the original release, too, and IIRC it is also a single track - mildly annoying!) 

--Bruce

[techniquest]

The Wit recording with the Staatskapelle Weimar totally surprised me, in a positive way.

Didn't surprise me, I have a lot of respect for Wit particularly after his Mahler recordings for Naxos. I was however a little disappointed with the storm section of the Strauss work - it seemed like it was happening on another mountain! Otherwise, a great recording.

[Daverz]

Kempe recorded it twice commercially.

Supposedly, Testament will be reissuing his RPO recording.

[M forever]

That would be nice. I have never heard the RPO recording. Right now, I am reading a little biography of Kempe with lots of pictures, there are many of him with the RPO, too, and there are also pics of the recording sessions of the Alpensinfonie in Dresden. Pity I don't have a scanner!
How does that work? Not too well, I guess...But it is interesting to see how they liad out the orchestra, with some of the instruments on the other side, note the percussion actually behind Kempe (in the lower right hand corner, you can see the wind machine).

Didn't surprise me, I have a lot of respect for Wit particularly after his Mahler recordings for Naxos. I was however a little disappointed with the storm section of the Strauss work - it seemed like it was happening on another mountain! Otherwise, a great recording.

What do you mean by that?
I definitely want to check out some of Wit's Mahler recordings. I have some of his Lutosławski which is very nice, very good orchestra, too (the one from Katowice).

Hm, well, I haven't heard it in awhile, but I really don't recall it being "horrible."  (I have the original, not the "Gold" version.)  My recalling it may have something to do with recalling the live experience, which of course was sensational. 

For me, it's the exact opposite, I hate this disc because I heard the Alpensinfonie live several times with HvK (and sensational is even an understatement, it was just incredible, some of the greatest concert experiences I ever had) and had hoped to find at least echoes of that on the disc. What I hate so much about it is obviously not that it is only a small miniature of the sound, but that the sound quality is so totally different from the live sound which as you will recall was very big, rich and deep while this here is just flat, glaring, harsh. Anyway, I am glad for you you find more pleasure in it, I tried for a quarter century to reconcile myself with that CD, but haven't managed to... 
Well, at least we have the DVD fo that concert, that is much better than the CD. I would highly recommend listening to Mehta's recording with the BP on Sony if you get a chance to, that actually sounds much more like the orchestra played that piece. BTW, Mehta also made a rather nice recording with the LAP in the 70s which has plenty of very good musical detail.

Where did you hear them, BTW?

There's also a live recording of the WP with Hans Knappertsbusch that I have which I think is from the early 50's. It's very well played and interesting to listen to, though the sound is not very good. I'm not very interested in hearing Previn or Ozawa in this piece, but I would like to hear Thielemann sometime to compare.

Yes, you should, it really is excellent. He takes his time, too, there are some rather slow passages, but that time is filled with great music making, very live, very flexible and spontaneous and the orchestra sounds just great. It helps that he sets them up in the traditional way, with the violins divided and the basses in one line along the backwall. You can actually hear that very well on the disc. The result is a very spread out and open string sound with a broad, raspingly firm and very heavy bass foundation (you can actually hear the "stirring in the dark" passages of the basses in the introduction really well although they play very quietly), and that dark, bass driven sound provides a great frame for all the other instruments to place their sounds in. T-man generally goes for a very round, dark and deep sound and that sometimes results in somewat mushy and congested textures (I still haven't figured out what he was trying to achieve ith his Schumann symphony recordings), but it works extremely well here, provided it is listened to on good equipment, then it sounds great.

[techniquest]

What do you mean by that?
I definitely want to check out some of Wit's Mahler recordings.

I mean that the orchestral effects and power in that section are very lacklustre compared to how superb the performance has been up to that point. Maybe it's just me - I'm used to the Ashkenazy and Masur recordings which have thunderous storms, whereas the Wit sounds more like a passing shower.
Do try his Mahler however - the 8th in particular is among the very best you can buy.

[bhodges]

Where did you hear them, BTW?

This was at Carnegie, back in the 1980s, when they came for three (might have been four) concerts, of which I heard two.  The other one was Brahms 2 and 4 (they did 1 and 3 another night).  With Eine Alpensinfonie, they opened the program with Stravinsky's Apollon Musagete.  It was the first time I had encountered either work (pretty much love at first hearing, too), and one of the best concerts I've ever heard. 

I actually found this article about their appearances from Time Magazine (Nov. 1, 1982) which helps a little, but annoyingly doesn't give the program for the fourth concert. 

PS, I will look for that Mehta.  After his time in NYC I'm not his biggest fan, but he has done some spectacular work in the right repertoire, with other orchestras.

--Bruce

[Hector]

Supposedly, Testament will be reissuing his RPO recording.

I had it on LP. When I bought it at a record shop, as you did in those days,  the shop assistant commented approvingly on my choice.

Kempe was my most favourite German conductor in those days. More so than Klemperer, even.

Come to think of it was there ever a recording from Rudolf Kempe that was completely duff?

[MDL]

Simply, what recordings would you recommend of this work? I personally have this one:

I love the sound that the BRSO produce on this recording, and I'm generally a fan of Solti in Strauss (his Salome and Zarathustra are excellent). But Solti's Alpine Symphony, like his Mahler and Bruckner, can be too hectoring and impatient. Too fast, basically. Blomstedt and the SFSO on Decca give a dignity to this score that, in parts, eludes Solti, and if you want fireworks, Mehta and the LAPO are spectacular without being overly aggressive. I love Solti, but he could overdo it sometimes.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I love the sound that the BRSO produce on this recording, and I'm generally a fan of Solti in Strauss (his Salome and Zarathustra are excellent). But Solti's Alpine Symphony, like his Mahler and Bruckner, can be too hectoring and impatient. Too fast, basically. Blomstedt and the SFSO on Decca give a dignity to this score that, in parts, eludes Solti, and if you want fireworks, Mehta and the LAPO are spectacular without being overly aggressive. I love Solti, but he could overdo it sometimes.

Yeah, I guess 44 minutes compared to 54 as others is a bit fast. Actually other than the Ascent which is taken at a ridiculously fast tempo I don't think Solti sounds outrageously fast. He just doesn't linger over some of the moments like others. But I like how he gets the SOBR to play like his own CSO, probably no small feat !

[Maciek]

Has anyone heard the Kord recording Hurwitz raved about? I'd be interested if that was written in his lunatic or sane mode? Is the CD worth seeking out (it seems to be out of print, or at least isn't available in any of my usual internet stores)?

[M forever]

No, I have actually been looking for the Kord recording in vain for a long time. I don't care for Hurwitz has to say about that at all, he is just an idiot and a hollow poser, but I would still be interested in the recording to hear how that orchestra plays the piece.

Yeah, I guess 44 minutes compared to 54 as others is a bit fast. Actually other than the Ascent which is taken at a ridiculously fast tempo I don't think Solti sounds outrageously fast. He just doesn't linger over some of the moments like others. But I like how he gets the SOBR to play like his own CSO, probably no small feat !

That's actually one of the "problems" here. Of course it's no problem for the SOBR to play like that, it doesn't really have much to do with Solti except that "he asked for it" here. A lot of people don't understand that that blazing brass thing is not a matter of "more is better", or even of technical virtuosity (a lot of good brass players can play like that if they want or have to), but a matter of taste and orchestral culture (or lack thereof). The SOBR has a much richer sound than that, and one which is eminently suited to Strauss' music, so why not use it? Maazel did, with much better results, in his RCA recording. Part of the sound heard here is also simply the way Decca recorded it, with extreme close and spot miking and harsh EQing, the same way they recorded the CSO in those years to create that "Solti sound" that they "cultivated" like a trademark (and which many CSO fans and also members of the orchestra feel actually gravely misrepresented the sound of that orchestra, too).
The other "problem" isn't really the rather quick tempi either (although I definitely agree "Der Anstieg" is just ridiculously fast), some conductors make this work with similarly fast tempi (I think Strauss' own recording is on the fast side, too, like most of his recordings actually), it's the complete inflexibility and maniacal metronomicness that Solti drives the orchestra to, and his unwillingness to explore the rich and differentiated musical layers and textures of the piece. Sensitivity for color and expressive detail were definitely not among his strengths anyway. Many of his recordings sound totally "monochrome" to me, like enhanced black and white pictures.

This was at Carnegie, back in the 1980s, when they came for three (might have been four) concerts, of which I heard two.  The other one was Brahms 2 and 4 (they did 1 and 3 another night).  With Eine Alpensinfonie, they opened the program with Stravinsky's Apollon Musagete.  It was the first time I had encountered either work (pretty much love at first hearing, too), and one of the best concerts I've ever heard. 

I actually found this article about their appearances from Time Magazine (Nov. 1, 1982) which helps a little, but annoyingly doesn't give the program for the fourth concert. 

PS, I will look for that Mehta.  After his time in NYC I'm not his biggest fan, but he has done some spectacular work in the right repertoire, with other orchestras.

Yes, he has always done some really good work here and there, some of his early recordings with the WP are really very good and highly promising, but it seems that he hasn't been able to constantly fulfill these promises. I suspect he just did too much too fast, everything, everywhere. Some of his work in LA was really good, too, judging from the recordings made then, including the rather good Alpensinfonie.
The BP recording on Sony is OOP, but there are plenty of attractively priced used copies available, and I can confidently recommend you to get it, I am sure you will recognize more of the BP sound you heard live from this disc than the DG one, even though musically, Mehta's reading is a little less "grandiose".

I am glad you had the opportunity to hear the Alpensinfonie live with Karajan. I have never been to Carnegie Hall, so I don't know how good the acoustics really are and if they could accomodate the giant dynamic and color spectrum that performance had. It wasn't actually just the richness, the sheer volume, depth and quality of the sound, it was also the marvelous quality of sound Karajan achieved in soft dynamics which impressed me so much. For instance, the very beginning with the string cluster, he had finetuned the balance so much that it made an effect which I have never heard since, not even with the BP under other conductors. The sound was extremely soft, but it completely filled the room, I literally had the feeling that the room was filled with some kind of dark fog, not just that you heard a sound coming from the stage.
That article is pretty hagiographic, but I can kind of understand that because it was really extraordinarily impressive, definitely among the greatest musical listening experiences I had myself, something which on that level of quality, I have only heard a few times in my life and something that I will probably never hear again. I almost feel sorry for people who didn't have the opportunity to hear that. Well, at least we did...

I mean that the orchestral effects and power in that section are very lacklustre compared to how superb the performance has been up to that point. Maybe it's just me - I'm used to the Ashkenazy and Masur recordings which have thunderous storms, whereas the Wit sounds more like a passing shower.

Dunno, I just listened to that again, and I didn't think that at all. Maybe it's not as "thunderous" as some other recordings, but it is certainly not "lacklustre". Not everything there is supposed to be fff, there is actually a lot of fine detail which I think Wit brings out and allows to make its effect better than most other conductors I have heard. There is a lot of stuff going on in the strings and woodwinds that you often can't hear because everything is drowned out by the brass - or rather, in most cases, the way the recording engineers highlight the brass to make it sound more "exciting". There is certainly no lack of power here from the brass either - they are just not pulled to the front by the recording but "stay seated" where they are. Which is also a function of the very "realistic" recording Naxos achieved here, it may be a little bit reverberant and distant, but it also allows the sound of the orchestra to develop and live in the room. I actually like it more and more with every time I hear it, especially because there is so much fine color and the playing is just so "right" stylistically.

I didn't know Masur also made a recording of that, with the GOL even. That might be interesting, but there is only one used copy for $100+ on amazon.com, I don't find it *that* interesting...

[Renfield]

Let me confirm that Thielemann's recording is good! I bought it yesterday, much to my subsequent delight.

Still, I prefer the Karajan for his reading, foggy recording and all.

[sound67]

I've got several versions of this work (incl. Kempe's), but I favor Previn's on Telarc for its stupendous sound. There are few interpretive quirks possible in this piece anyway, it plays itself, it's interpretation-resistant. Basically it's down to whether the orchestra are fit to play it.

Thomas

[paul]

There are few interpretive quirks possible in this piece anyway, it plays itself, it's interpretation-resistant. Basically it's down to whether the orchestra are fit to play it.

Thomas

While Eine Alpensinfonie has detailed notation in terms of dynamics and tempos, the piece is way too complicated to be anything that could be run through with any sort of real satisfaction and requires real insight into the score and real work in rehearsal. After playing this piece with Andrew Litton last year, I've found that phrasing in this piece is flexible and open to a number of interpretations and that it's very difficult to bring out a lot of the detail when there is so much flying by at once.

[M forever]

You are very correct, the piece is so complex, it makes a huge difference how all the detail is treated, and especially the phrasing is a very complex subject, too, especially because this is an extremely lyrical, melody-driven piece in which the long melodic lines do the storytelling and provide the context.

What orchestra do you play in?

[paul]

The Juilliard Orchestra. We played the piece last year at Avery Fisher Hall in New York in a fairly mediocre performance with Verdi's Overture to La Forza del Destino and Walton's Viola Concerto. Andrew Litton was pretty good to work with and rehearsed very directly with us, but the Alpensinfonie is not a piece that I think could ever be played that well with a mixed group of undergraduate and graduate students, especially given how insensitive a lot of the violinists and brass players in the orchestra play 

[PerfectWagnerite]

The Juilliard Orchestra. We played the piece last year at Avery Fisher Hall in New York in a fairly mediocre performance with Verdi's Overture to La Forza del Destino and Walton's Viola Concerto. Andrew Litton was pretty good to work with and rehearsed very directly with us, but the Alpensinfonie is not a piece that I think could ever be played that well with a mixed group of undergraduate and graduate students, especially given how insensitive a lot of the violinists and brass players in the orchestra play 

What do you think about Litton? Think he should have gotten the job at the NYPO?

[paul]

What do you think about Litton? Think he should have gotten the job at the NYPO?

Litton is a fine conductor, but I'm not sure if he was a candidate for the NYPO job. From when he conducted the NYPO, I have the feeling that he did a good job, but left a somewhat indifferent impression behind him. He's not the most inspiring of conductors that I've dealt with and I think the recordings I have by him and the Dallas SO playing Mahler 2 and 10 are somewhat bland. The Philharmonic felt pressured to get a younger conductor after the Los Angeles Philharmonic got Dudamel, but really the Philharmonic has never had a tradition of hiring young, upcoming conductors. Everyone wants another Leonard Bernstein, but Bernstein was 40 when he was appointed conductor of the NYPO, had already composed a number of works, and conducted orchestras and operas throughout the world. Gilbert isn't even that young, but I haven't heard his conducting so I can't judge if he's the right choice. At least it's good P.R. at this point getting a native New Yorker with family in the orchestra. The orchestra members weren't involved in picking the conductor, but apparently Ludovic Morlot made a great impression conducting them this season and of course Riccardo Muti would have been picked if he wanted the job. He'll be the conductor for all the orchestra's tours and spend a great deal of time guest conducting which I'm looking forward to.

[M forever]

Well, I think the Muti factor wears off pretty quickly. Good conductor, no doubt, very professional, but not so much substance really. It's more the hair that people like, although I am not sure how much of that he has left at his age.

I agree with your impressions of Litton (I never played under his direction though, but I don't have the feeling I missed anything either). Definitely not someone who I could see with an orchestra of the level of the NYP.

The Juilliard Orchestra. We played the piece last year at Avery Fisher Hall in New York in a fairly mediocre performance with Verdi's Overture to La Forza del Destino and Walton's Viola Concerto. Andrew Litton was pretty good to work with and rehearsed very directly with us, but the Alpensinfonie is not a piece that I think could ever be played that well with a mixed group of undergraduate and graduate students, especially given how insensitive a lot of the violinists and brass players in the orchestra play 

Well, the piece was played a number of times both by the ECYO and GMJO (unfortunately before and after my time, so I didn't play in any of these performances, the only times I played the piece was in the Staatskapelle Weimar) which are very mixed groups of young people in roughly the same age group, and they played it very, very well at all those occasions (the GMJO performance conducted by Welser-Möst was even released by EMI). How does the rehearsal process for such a program work at Juilliard? Do you get section tuition by experienced musicians from good orchestras?