What Opera Are You Listening to Now?

[Le Buisson Ardent]

I love all Verdi's operas, even the early ones from his "galley years" and have recordings of all of them. However my absolute favourites all come from his middle and late period.

Though a flawed work, Don Carlo might just be my absolute favourite, but I find it impossible to list them in any order, though les vêpres siciliennes would probably come last in a ranked list of all the operas since Rigoletto. I also have a special affection for La Traviata, which can be shattering, but it needs a Callas, or a Cotrubas, whom I once saw in the role at Covent Garden.

Of the earlier operas, my favourites would be Macbeth, Stiffelio and Nabucco, but even the much maligned Alzira isn't entirely without merit.

Don Carlos. Modena version in French, preferably, but I'll take what I can get.
Il Trovatore
La Forza del Destino. Stick to Verdi's revised or original versions, please, with no cuts or rearranging.
Otello
Ernani

I love all his "greatest hits", but I'll choose the above as my favorites, in pretty much that order.

1. Rigoletto, Il trovatore, La traviata (the famous Rig-Trov-Trav "trilogy": top-notch Verdi, top-notch opera, top-notch music --- pace @ritter)
2. Nabucco, Ernani, Macbeth
3. Un ballo in maschera, La Forza del destino, Aida

but what @Tsaraslondon said applies to me as well:

Thank you all for your feedback. @ritter per usual, I have my eyebrow raised by several of your comments, but I'm not going to highlight all of what I found curious.

[ritter]

Actually, Rafael, how do you define that vulgarity and what does it consist of? You've been accusing and condemning Verdi and his Rig-Trov-Trav for years yet never specified any details in this respect. Now it's time to lay your aces on the table: what elements of the plot and the music are vulgar and why? Go ahead, list them all.

An image is worth one thousand words...

One for each component of the "trilogy". If someone invokes Verdi's "melodic gift" (which undeniably exists in many other examples), I say no, these are not great melodies, but organ-grinder grade tunes, crudely orchestrated and with zero interesting harmonic or contrapuntal elements. Their only virtue is that they can be whistled by the common man on the street. How's that for vulgarity?

But, mind you, I've been listening to quite a lot of Verdi recently (as reported only partially here) because of my exploration of the work of conductors like Toscanini, Panizza and de Sabata. As I once had to say in a discussion in another forum: I know good stretches of many Verdi  operas by heart, but much as I can enjoy the works, I will not "elevate" him to a musical pantheon he doesn't belong to... 

[Le Buisson Ardent]

An image is worth one thousand words...

One for each component of the "trilogy". If someone invokes Verdi's "melodic gift" (which undeniably exists in many other examples), I say no, these are not great melodies, but organ-grinder grade tunes, crudely orchestrated and with zero interesting harmonic or contrapuntal elements. Their only virtue is that they can be whistled by the common man on the street. How's that for vulgarity?

But, mind you, I've been listening to quite a lot of Verdi recently (as reported only partially here) because of my exploration of the work of conductors like Toscanini, Panizza and de Sabata. As I once had to say in a discussion in another forum: I know good stretches of many Verdi  operas by heart, but much as I can enjoy the works, I will not "elevate" him to a musical pantheon he doesn't belong to... 

Just because you don't rate him highly doesn't negate the fact that Verdi is still one of the most revered operatic composers of all-time. One doesn't have to elevate Verdi to a musical pantheon because he's already there with or without your own support.

[Florestan]

An image is worth one thousand words...

One for each component of the "trilogy". If someone invokes Verdi's "melodic gift" (which undeniably exists in many other examples), I say no, these are not great melodies, but organ-grinder grade tunes, crudely orchestrated and with zero interesting harmonic or contrapuntal elements. Their only virtue is that they can be whistled by the common man on the street. How's that for vulgarity?

Blimey, Rafael, that is laughable --- and I'm sorry for not being to put it any milder.

What refined orchestration and interesting harmony and counterpoint do you expect from/for music portraying (a) a  Lothario, (b) a gipsy camp, and (c) a party of drunken rakes and prostitutes? In all three cases the music fits the characters like a glove, both dramatically and psychologically. What would you have the Duke of Mantua sing on the occasion, a virelai by Philippe de Vitry? What would you have gypsy blacksmiths sing on the occasion, a madrigal by Luca Marenzio? What would you have Alfredo and Violetta sing on the occasion, an Arcadian Duet by Handel?

As for the tunes being hummable, this is exactly how operatic tunes were still supposed to sound back then: melodious, cantabile, singable --- because back then opera was still about singing, not yet about (vocal) symphonying (sic!). Moreover, back then opera was still a democratic, social and entertaining art aimed precisely at the common man, not yet an esoteric mystery officiated by high priests for initiates preferably having the status of hajj.

Your "evidence" for the alleged vulgarity of Verdi's operas is actually evidence for his genius and would be laughed out from any musicological court not infected by incurable Wagneritis.

[San Antone]

But, mind you, I've been listening to quite a lot of Verdi recently (as reported only partially here) because of my exploration of the work of conductors like Toscanini, Panizza and de Sabata. As I once had to say in a discussion in another forum: I know good stretches of many Verdi  operas by heart, but much as I can enjoy the works, I will not "elevate" him to a musical pantheon he doesn't belong to... 

Since you are not in any position to control which pantheon Verdi is considered to be among, your post simply reflects your taste.  Which you are of course entitled to express. 

For myself, I consider Verdi among the best composers of opera. My top three, in this order, are Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner. Verdi is definitely in my personal pantheon.

[ritter]

Blimey, Rafael, that is laughable --- and I'm sorry for not being to put it any milder.

What refined orchestration and interesting harmony and counterpoint do you expect from/for music portraying (a) a  Lothario, (b) a gipsy camp, and (c) a party of drunken rakes and prostitutes? In all three cases the music fits the characters like a glove, both dramatically and psychologically. What would you have the Duke of Mantua sing on the occasion, a virelai by Philippe de Vitry? What would you have gypsy blacksmiths sing on the occasion, a madrigal by Luca Marenzio? What would you have Alfredo and Violetta sing on the occasion, an Arcadian Duet by Handel?

As for the tunes being hummable, this is exactly how operatic tunes were still supposed to sound back then: melodious, cantabile, singable --- because back then opera was still about singing, not yet about (vocal) symphonying (sic!).

Your "evidence" for the alleged vulgarity of Verdi's operas is actually evidence for his genius and would be laughed out from any musicological court not infected by incurable Wagneritis.

I have not mentioned Wagner at all, my friend; it's you who does so  Che ossessione! 

But we already know by now that our tastes and appreciations are diametrically opposed.

Your little comment might be witty, but rather silly, I'm afraid. Music depicting a thug must not necessarily sound as if it was written by a thug....

And about tunes being whistable or hummable, do e.g. "Tanti affection" from Rossini's La Donna del lago, or "Come per me sereno" from Bellini's La Sonnambula fall under that category? I wouldn't say so. Making tunes "hummable" has, I insist, scant musical value...

But, there's no problem. I'll keep on listening to Falstaff, and you can keep whistling "Caro nome" down the street...

[ritter]

Since you are not in any position to control which pantheon Verdi is considered to be among, your post simply reflects your taste.  Which you are of course entitled to express. 

For myself, I consider Verdi among the best composers of opera. My top three, in this order, are Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner. Verdi is definitely in my personal pantheon.

I am in a position to control anyone's presence in my personal pantheon, as you have just done in yours... 

[Florestan]

Your little comment might be witty, but rather silly

Well, exactly the same applies to this little comment:

honestly believe that he was a greater "writer of operas" than composer.

And about tunes being whistable or hummable, do e.g. "Tanti affection" from Rossini's La Donna del lago, or "Come per me sereno" from Bellini's La Sonnambula fall under that category? I wouldn't say so.

I am not familiar with La donna del lago but La sonnambula has at least three tunes as hummable as anything hummable by Verdi: Prendi, l'anel ti dono, Vi ravviso o luoghi ameni and Ah! non giunge uman pensiero. Four, if we add A fosco cielo. Your point is moot.

I'll keep on listening to Falstaff, and you can keep whistling "Caro nome" down the street...

Reverenza!

[ritter]

...

I am not familiar with La donna del lago

One of Rossini's greatest creations IMHO.

Reverenza!

Buen giorno, buon uomo... 

[JBS]

Just dropping this here for its singable melodies and very expert use of counterpoint

[DavidW]

My top three, in this order, are Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner. Verdi is definitely in my personal pantheon.

I don't know what my top three are but my tops include those but also Handel, Lully, Strauss and Puccini.

[JBS]

And this one too

[Le Buisson Ardent]

I don't know what my top three are but my tops include those but also Handel, Lully, Strauss and Puccini.

My top three would like this: Strauss, Janáček and Berlioz. To be fair, I don't listen too much opera and it's far from one of my favorite genres, but if I were to only pick one operatic composer it would be Janáček.

[ritter]

I don't know what my top three are but my tops include those but also Handel, Lully, ...

And you suggest I am the one who should post in the unpopular opinions thread, David?     

Good evening to you...

[Pohjolas Daughter]

@Mirror Image

I love a number of his operas. 

Some favorites (particularly the first three):

Aida
Don Carlo
Otello
La Traviata (O.k., I've probably heard it a few too many times lately, but still enjoy it.)
La Forza del Destino
Rigoletto

PD

[Florestan]

And you suggest I am the one who should post in the unpopular opinions thread, David?     

"Handel is a great opera composer" is not an unpopular opinion. 

[ritter]

"Handel is a great opera composer" is not an unpopular opinion. 

You don't need to say that twice. Here in Madrid at the Teatro Real, out of eighteen works programmed for next season, four no less are by Handel. Unbelievable! I think I will not set foot in the opera house at all next season...

[Florestan]

You don't need to say that twice. Here in Madrid at the Teatro Real, out of eighteen works programmed for next season, four no less are by Handel. Unbelievable! I think I will not set foot in the opera house at all next season...

Handel, Brahms, Verdi, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Massenet, Chopin --- I wonder who's next on the list of universally acclaimed great composers whom you flatly deny their status...   

[Florestan]

First listen to Offenbach's unlucky masterpiece.



Act I & Act II

So far, so good.

[ritter]

First listen to Offenbach's unlucky masterpiece.



Act I & Act II

So far, so good.

That's a name that was misting in your list above...

Handel, Brahms, Verdi, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Massenet, Chopin --- I wonder who's next on the list of universally acclaimed great composers whom you flatly deny their status...