Major to minor

[DaveF]

Thinking for no particular reason (too much leisure? over-indulging my pessimistic streak?) of pieces that start in the major and end in the tonic minor.  The only ones that come to mind actually finishing on a minor triad are:

Mendelssohn Italian Symphony
Brahms Trio in B

plus some others that have largely minor-key finales, but turn major at the end:

Haydn Op.76/1
Dvořák 5
Berlioz Harold en Italie
Brahms Violin sonata in G

Please add to my list, or point me to a thread where it's already been done.

[Jo498]

I think you already have most of the somewhat better known examples. Another famous one is of course Mozart'S K 331 with the alla turca in a minor.
A few more: Haydn's symphony #70 with a d minor fugue as finale (it turns to the major on the last page) and Haydn's op.76/3 that is similar to op.76/1 already mentioned.

(There are a few not quite bona fide examples from Handel pieces that were probably cobbled together by the editor Walsh, e.g. the B major suite with the Aria Brahms wrote his variations on closes with a minuet in g minor (that is left out in some more recent recordings) and the concerto op.3/6 consists of two (unrelated) movements in D major and d minor. I think op.3/1 which might have been cobbled together by Handel himself also has a minor mode finale)

The finale of Schubert's D 887 is also not quite as major as one would expect.

[DaveF]

I think you already have most of the somewhat better known examples.

Ah, well, thank you for your thoughts.  I was hoping to make a listening project out of lots more such pieces.  Death and the Maiden is another good one.   I did think of Handel - the Op.3 concerti or Water Music suites but, as you say, they are probably fairly random selections of movements rather than pieces with clear tonal plans.

I thought also of the Symphonie Fantastique, if the grunts, shrieks and gibberings at the start of the finale can be assigned to any key at all.  Another possibility might be Stravinsky's Symphony in C, with a largely minor-key finale, except that the first movement aiso begins in the minor - B minor at that.

[Jo498]

Death and Maiden starts in the minor as well, though, so it is not uncommon to have the finale in the minor as well. The somewhat uncommon thing about "Death and Maiden" is that the slow movement is in g minor, the subdominant minor whereas the overwhelming majority of classical (and probably also romantic) pieces would have the slow movement in the major when all other movements are in the tonic minor. The Schubert string quintet is another possible candidate as the main theme of the finale leans clearly to the minor and even the very end is tonally ambiguous.

I cannot think of another clear example but I'd expect there to be a few more cases in (late) romantic music. E.g. Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony has a first section/introduction of the finale in E major but the main body of the movement is in the minor, except for the end.
The finale of Mendelssohn's quartet op.12 is probably a cousin of the minor -> major finales of Haydn's op.76.

So I probably would not count these but if one keeps searching one might find other cases.
Especially in slavic music where the minor mode is often common because of some folk music connection and not necessarily implying a tragic context. Interestingly, two of the most famous examples, Mozart's alla turca and Mendelssohn's "Italian" also seem to have the minor mode mainly for some picturesque, "exotic" flair (although the Tarantella/Saltarello of the "Italian" is fairly dramatic).

To expand a little, there are pieces, also not all that common, that begin with an introduction or short movement in the major while the "main allegro" is in the minor. The most famous one is probably the "Kreutzer sonata" but other candidates are one of Mozart's violin sonatas (G major - minor K 379?), then there is Schubert's C major fantasy that has the first fast section in the minor after a slow intro and Mendelssohn's 5th symphony.

[amw]

Thinking for no particular reason (too much leisure? over-indulging my pessimistic streak?) of pieces that start in the major and end in the tonic minor.  The only ones that come to mind actually finishing on a minor triad are:

Mendelssohn Italian Symphony
Brahms Trio in B

also:
Schubert Impromptu D.899 no.2 in E-flat major/minor
Brahms Rhapsodie Op.119 no.4 in E-flat major/minor
Mendelssohn Rondo capriccioso Op.14 in E major/minor (introduction in E major, main body of the movement is in E minor throughout)
Chopin Nocturne Op.32 no.1 in B major/minor
Chopin Ballade No.2 Op.38 in F major/A minor (if that counts—a minor is at least as much a tonic of the piece as f major)
Schubert "Tränenregen" and "Die böse Farbe" from Die schöne Müllerin, and a few other songs in general (I'd have to look up to see which ones)
Shostakovich String Quartet No.2
Dvořák Czech Suite


And some more "obscure" examples I guess:
Roy Harris Symphony No.3 in G major/minor
Reicha L'art de varier in F major/minor
Voríšek Violin Sonata in G major/minor
Barber Violin Concerto in G major/A minor (again, if that counts)
Taneyev String Quintet No.2 in C major/minor

plus some others that have largely minor-key finales, but turn major at the end:

Haydn Op.76/1
Dvořák 5
Berlioz Harold en Italie
Brahms Violin sonata in G

Shostakovich Symphony No.15
Brahms Symphony No.3
Ravel String Quartet in F
Enescu Piano Sonata No.3
Arensky Piano Quintet
etc.

I feel like there is at least one really famous example I'm missing that maybe I mentioned last time we had a thread like this? hmm

edit: yes, it's Valse triste

[Jo498]

Mahler's first symphony? The finale starts in the minor, doesn't it? But it would probably misleading to say that it is mostly in the minor..

[Mahlerian]

Mahler's first symphony? The finale starts in the minor, doesn't it? But it would probably misleading to say that it is mostly in the minor..

It begins in F minor, goes through a second theme in D-flat major, and eventually ends up in D major (the main key of the first movement).  Despite the long introduction to the first movement, I wouldn't really say that the symphony begins in the minor.  Introductions are often considered separately.

Mahler's Sixth is a strange example.  Although the first movement is clearly in A minor, the first harmony heard is a first-inversion F major chord.  The finale begins in a tonally ambiguous region around C minor and finishes in a decisive A minor.

[Karl Henning]

It begins in F minor, goes through a second theme in D-flat major, and eventually ends up in D major (the main key of the first movement).  Despite the long introduction to the first movement, I wouldn't really say that the symphony begins in the minor.  Introductions are often considered separately.

Even as his clear model there, the first movement of the B^b Major LvB symphony, begins with an introduction in the parallel minor.

Mahler's Sixth is a strange example.  Although the first movement is clearly in A minor, the first harmony heard is a first-inversion F major chord.  The finale begins in a tonally ambiguous region around C minor and finishes in a decisive A minor.

It seems that Mahler defied (or, expanded upon) the convention of a symphony being "in" a single unifying key  0:)

[Mahlerian]

It seems that Mahler defied (or, expanded upon) the convention of a symphony being "in" a single unifying key  0:)

Of course.  Several of his symphonies begin in one tonal region and end in another one entirely:

2nd: c -> Eb
4th: (b) G -> E
5th: c# -> D
7th: (b) e -> C
9th: D -> Db

The second was written before Nielsen had advanced his ideas about "progressive tonality," even.

[amw]

c -> Eb & G -> E at least kind of make sense from a Romantic perspective, where a particular key and its relative minor/major are treated as equivalent. (The E major is after all originally E minor.) See also: Chopin Scherzo in b-flat minor/D-flat major, Fantasy in f minor/A-flat major, etc. The progressive tonality thing really kicks off with the 5th I think.

[Jo498]

I meant only the finale of Mahler's 1st. But you are probably right that the tonal relations of the movements are handled too freely in Mahler for the patterns Dave mentioned in his first post to be applicable. f minor is quite far from D major (flat mediant? or what would this be called?).

[DaveF]

Dvořák Czech Suite

Yes!  I knew Dvořák could do it!  One of his most thrilling endings, too, from a composer who specialised in thrilling endings.  Is it going to be major?  Yes it is... no it isn't.

[Mahlerian]

c -> Eb & G -> E at least kind of make sense from a Romantic perspective, where a particular key and its relative minor/major are treated as equivalent. (The E major is after all originally E minor.) See also: Chopin Scherzo in b-flat minor/D-flat major, Fantasy in f minor/A-flat major, etc. The progressive tonality thing really kicks off with the 5th I think.

Mahler doesn't tend to treat relative tonal areas as equivalent (parallel ones, yes).  In fact, in the Second, the C minor/major that the finale opens in is progressively obliterated over the course of the movement, and after the chorus enters in the key of G-flat, C is left behind entirely as a point of reference.