Topic: Brexit Negotiations.

[vandermolen]

So, what's your view on how these are going?
Looks like the whole thing is breaking down to me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/uk_leaves_the_eu

[71 dB]

What's wrong with the brits? What do they want with all these isolation plans? Do they really believe they do better leaving the EU? Really?

[Christo]

It's a tragicomedy with one obvious loser - and the final stage in the dissolution of an ernstwhile empire, now that Gibraltar, Akrotiri and Dhekelia at Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Scotland will be forced to choose their own destinies. 

With one big lesson to all Europeans (and Americans, but there's an even better warning at hand): democracy cannot be co-exist with referenda and other forms of so-called 'direct democracy' (serving the agenda of autocrats and other political adventurists only).

[pjme]

AMEN!

P.

[Jo498]

So one has the choice between demagogues (who play the masses, so referenda are bad) and techno-bureaucrats who are entrenched so deeply that it is extremely hard to remove them either. Or if a government is changed, the EU and international banks force their policy on them anyway, because as Schäuble said, pacta sunt servanda and democracy be damned, if "your" government has agreed to some shady deals years ago, there is no point in removing it because you are stuck with the shady deals anyway.

[Que]

I thouroughly agree that referendums are an inadequate way of making complex decisions, which are in this day and age basically all decisions of any importance  (health care,  security,  international relations).

But that shouldn't blind us for the fact that the archaic bipolar British parliamentary system failed in an epic way to present people with well informed and considered guidance at forehand, and with adequate opposition or scrutiny of the political course in the aftermath of the referendum.

Logically the best option for Britain would have been to remain part of the internal market and join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).
But no.... Since the decision to leave the EU wasn't based on any logical grounds anyway, that option was ruled out...

Where will it go from here? Since the expectations on the side of the hard line Tories who are in charge on the British side are unrealistic and their political manouvering space nil, we're heading for a rift between the UK and the EU resulting in a "hard" Brexit. Perhaps with the single exception of a deal on EU citizens in the UK and vice versa.
Unless the UK government for some reason backs down at the last moment or in the event of a political crisis in the UK that halts a Brexit. Either possibility seems less likely.

I guess Brits are going to regain full controle of their "Empire 2.0" and are going to have to live with it...

And all possible blame for the disastrous result will of course be squarely put on the EU....
Who wants to be responsible for the consequences of their own decisions anyway? The political events in the US are an example in case.

Q

[zamyrabyrd]

With one big lesson to all Europeans (and Americans, but there's an even better warning at hand): democracy cannot be co-exist with referenda and other forms of so-called 'direct democracy' (serving the agenda of autocrats and other political adventurists only).

So people are only useful idiots whose votes are subject to manipulation by the most unscrupulous.
Why not just declare a One World Autocracy now and be done once and for all with the illusion of democracy?

[Christo]

So people are only useful idiots whose votes are subject to manipulation by the most unscrupulous.
Why not just declare a One World Autocracy now and be done once and for all with the illusion of democracy?

I just plead FOR democracy - and AGAINST the abuse of voters. So-called 'direct democracy' is actually the opposte of democracy and is most effectively used by autocratic leadership (think of the last century's examples, varying from the extreme right to the extreme left, but all of them anti-democrats).

[vandermolen]

Former British Prime Ministers with as widely divergent views as Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher both believed that the use of a referendum was completely against British constitutional practice. David Cameron made a terrible misjudgement in my view. We elect governments to govern. Also, Cameron was foolish not to enfranchise 16 and 17 year olds who will be most affected by the disastrous (IMHO) Brexit decision. Had he done so we would not be leaving the EU.

[Christo]

Former British Prime Ministers with as widely divergent views as Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher both believed that the use of a referendum was completely against British constitutional practice. David Cameron made a terrible misjudgement in my view. We elect governments to govern. Also, Cameron was foolish not to enfranchise 16 and 17 year olds who will be most affected by the disastrous (IMHO) Brexit decision. Had he done so we would not be leaving the EU.

Fully agree. 

[vandermolen]

What's wrong with the brits? What do they want with all these isolation plans? Do they really believe they do better leaving the EU? Really?

48% of us didn't want to leave the EU.

[vandermolen]

It's a tragicomedy with one obvious loser - and the final stage in the dissolution of an ernstwhile empire, now that Gibraltar, Akrotiri and Dhekelia at Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Scotland will be forced to choose their own destinies. 

With one big lesson to all Europeans (and Americans, but there's an even better warning at hand): democracy cannot be co-exist with referenda and other forms of so-called 'direct democracy' (serving the agenda of autocrats and other political adventurists only).

And I totally agree with this. 

[Christo]

48% of us didn't want to leave the EU.

And the other half couldn't know what they were 'voting' about.

[Que]

And the other half couldn't know what they were 'voting' about.

The "good" news is that they will find out soon enough...

Q

[Christo]

The "good" news is that they will find out soon enough...

Q

You're right: the warning effects of both the Brexit and the Trumpolini experiments on European voters are already visible. 

[Que]

Britain’s complacency over Brexit will end in humiliation

Why do many of the British elite believe they do not need the EU, unlike their French and German counterparts? One reason is their rose-tinted view of Britain’s history. Britain did not need to rebuild its international reputation in the same way as Germany did after the war. But too many see Britain as a beacon of democracy and liberty. Too few are aware that the country’s colonial historymeans that much of the rest of the world is more ambivalent – and that Britain is less trusted and admired – than they imagine. EU membership often helped to mitigate these historical tensions, while allowing Britain to punch above its weight by enabling it to act as a bridge between the EU and the US.

Much of the British elite know little about how Britain’s economy compares. Few realise that three-quarters of the country is poorer than the EU-15 average; that Britain’s growth performance has been mediocre at best; or that there are relatively few British-owned and managed businesses with a strong record of growth. There are bright spots in the British economy, but its commanding heights owe much to foreign capital and expertise. Foreign-owned businesses generate more than half the country’s exports, and many of these exports are intermediate goods – links in international, predominantly European, supply chains. These companies are especially vulnerable to Britain leaving the single market. If the British economy were more locally owned and managed, it would be easier to understand the British complacency over the economic impact of Brexit. But for a developed country so dependent on foreign capital to do something so damaging to its ability to attract that capital has few precedents.

Q

[Que]

Just to make myself clear: there isn't any "Schadenfreude" on my part - each and every European will pay the price for this utter folly....
Even though the British will have to bear the brunt of the damage themselves...

Q

[71 dB]

The question is how many years before the Brenter Negotiations start?

[mc ukrneal]

Too much doom and gloom. An FTA with the EU would bring a lot of the advantages without the disadvantages. What's more, many of the other European countries are dealing with similar sentiments, as the election in France currently shows.

[Que]

Too much doom and gloom. An FTA with the EU would bring a lot of the advantages without the disadvantages. What's more, many of the other European countries are dealing with similar sentiments, as the election in France currently shows.

Have your cake and eat it.... We've heard that one before....

Less cooperation = less compromise/ loss of sovereignty ("disadvantages") = less economic & political benefits.

And Brexit is not going to alter the economic consequences of globalisation, nor is it going to affect immigration from outside of the EU, nor will it dimish social and economic  inequality within the UK, nor is it going to restore the British Empire to its former "glory"... All of which in my observation have been the main reasons for people to favour Brexit.
Are they in for a surprise....

Q