Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations.  (Read 133041 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1160 on: November 30, 2019, 08:51:25 AM »
This whole mess has been going on for three years yet nobody knows what the Queen of the UK and the heir to the UK throne think about it. If they are not interested in the fate of the country they are supposed to represent, then what's their use?  If they are interested, why do they keep silent?
“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” — Claude Debussy

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1161 on: November 30, 2019, 12:32:38 PM »
This whole mess has been going on for three years yet nobody knows what the Queen of the UK and the heir to the UK throne think about it. If they are not interested in the fate of the country they are supposed to represent, then what's their use?  If they are interested, why do they keep silent?
I'm sure they are interested but they are not supposed to show any political bias, despite David Cameron's involvement of the Queen in the Scottish independence referendum (and then not being able to resist bragging about it in his recently published autobiography).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1162 on: November 30, 2019, 01:54:53 PM »
The Queen might be very concerned...
She inherited an empire in which the sun did not set, but her reign coincided with its decline.
I'm sure she is not looking forward to live to witness the final chapter - the break up of the United Kingdom itself, nearly a century after the Irish independence.....

Q
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 01:07:42 AM by Que »

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1163 on: December 01, 2019, 12:17:27 AM »
The Queen might be very concerned...
She inherited an empire in which the sun did not set, but her reign coincided with its decline.
I'm sure she is not looking forward to life to witness the final chapter - the break up of the United Kingdom itself, nearly a century after the Irish independence.....

Q

Yes, this is now a definite possibility as a consequence as Cameron's idiotic decision to hold a referendum, which would inevitably polarise the country.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1164 on: December 01, 2019, 01:17:40 AM »
It is striking that the decline of the British Empire, that was ushered in by Irish independence, might now end with Scottish independence - and a possible Irish unification in the longer run. Of course the Irish independence was triggered by the 1st World War, which directly led to the fall of the Austrian, German, Russian and Ottoman empires. The British Empire didn't fall, but slowly declined over a century.

I'm sorry to say, but from a historical perspective Brexit is fascinating.

Q

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1165 on: December 01, 2019, 01:45:21 AM »
It is striking that the decline of the British Empire, that was ushered in by Irish independence, might now end with Scottish independence - and a possible Irish unification in the longer run. Of course the Irish independence was triggered by the 1st World War, which directly led to the fall of the Austrian, German, Russian and Ottoman empires. The British Empire didn't fall, but slowly declined over a century.

I'm sorry to say, but from a historical perspective Brexit is fascinating.

Q

No, I understand that. The decline of Britain began, I think, in the late 19th Century when other countries began to 'catch up' with Britain's industrial lead. For example the German coal mines were newer, therefore cheaper to extract the coal which was nearer the surface. India developing it's own textile industry, the USA etc. There is an interesting paradox in that Britain became more self-consciously 'imperial' (Royal processions etc) as she started to decline as a great power (like a reaction-formation). The decline was, to some extent masked, by the isolationism of the USA between the wars and by allied victory in World War One, which also accelerated Britain's decline.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 01:47:48 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline André

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1166 on: December 01, 2019, 06:03:05 AM »
Very perceptive analysis, Jeffrey.

Britain’s dominance ebbed as other powers’ economic/industrial/military might rapidly grew (Germany and the USA, as you point out). Its preeminence was definitely a thing of the past when WWI was over.

Offline Iota

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1167 on: December 01, 2019, 09:53:37 AM »
There is an interesting paradox in that Britain became more self-consciously 'imperial' (Royal processions etc) as she started to decline as a great power (like a reaction-formation).

An excellent point, and the empty, puffing out of the chest parallels with Brexit, are hard to miss, but perhaps there were rational, practical reasons for it, perhaps it did something to steady the ship back then, whether or not one liked it.

Brexit on the other hand it seems to me, will be a farcical pyrrhic victory, self-inflicted economic and cultural stagnation, with scant reward for anyone. Alf Garnett roused out of his armchair to tilt at windmills, to sit back down again and blame everybody else for what goes wrong afterwards. Those are at the very least, evident elements of an event that I still can't quite believe is happening.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1168 on: December 04, 2019, 12:07:48 PM »
Amusing questionnaire here

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/survey3d.html

This is me


« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 12:13:14 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1169 on: December 05, 2019, 01:00:37 AM »
Amusing questionnaire here

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/survey3d.html


I answered with Romania instead of UK in mind.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 01:07:33 AM by Florestan »
“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” — Claude Debussy

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1170 on: December 05, 2019, 01:46:29 AM »
Very perceptive analysis, Jeffrey.

Britain’s dominance ebbed as other powers’ economic/industrial/military might rapidly grew (Germany and the USA, as you point out). Its preeminence was definitely a thing of the past when WWI was over.

Thanks André and Iota (I agree with your 'Alf Garnett' comment). It's very dispiriting living through all this. Johnson-supporting members of the public who refer to him as 'a leader' bring to mind Mick Jagger's response to a question asking him to identify what he considered to be the most overrated virtue. His response was 'natural born leader'. Personally I identify with the Taoist observation on leadership, namely 'always choose as your leader one who would rather be excused'. On Britain's decline I found this book, which I read many years ago, to be insightful. Many would imagine that these great royal processions and displays of imperial pageantry go back hundreds of years. But they don't - they date from the later Victorian period and the start of Britain's economic decline:

I remember the author pointing out that the image of 'England' is always identified with the countryside, the village green, tea on the lawn, the English landscape (think of all those Vaughan Williams and Elgar record sleeve images). He argues that Britain never incorporated industrialisation into its national self-image and it remained a kind of 'dirty' word - unacceptable to our ruling elite whose values resided (as they often did) in the countryside. If we think of America we think of the landscape and the cities (think of those Copland record sleeves). Britain never came to terms with its industrial pre-eminence which remained excluded from the national self-image. That's his argument as far as I remember anyway!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:04:45 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1171 on: December 05, 2019, 02:20:56 AM »
An excellent point, and the empty, puffing out of the chest parallels with Brexit, are hard to miss, but perhaps there were rational, practical reasons for it, perhaps it did something to steady the ship back then, whether or not one liked it.

Brexit on the other hand it seems to me, will be a farcical pyrrhic victory, self-inflicted economic and cultural stagnation, with scant reward for anyone. Alf Garnett roused out of his armchair to tilt at windmills, to sit back down again and blame everybody else for what goes wrong afterwards. Those are at the very least, evident elements of an event that I still can't quite believe is happening.

I'm sure you're right with your '...rational, practical reasons' comment. Think of the newly built 19th Century Houses of Parliament with its Neo-Gothic facade linking it with England's medieval past (notwithstanding the fact that the Gothic style originated in France) and stressing order, stability, tradition etc at the time when the ruling elite were fearing the rise of the 'urban mob' as a consequence of industrialisation, squalor and the social misery of inner-city life for many people. The large fountain in the middle of Trafalgar Square was placed there to discourage gatherings of large groups of alienated citizens in the centre of London.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:04:38 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Jo498

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1172 on: December 05, 2019, 02:27:17 AM »
Not sure about the Britain-specifics, but the questions were not very nuanced and also loaded. (I can find the death penalty appropriate for certain crimes or criminals, say Breivik, but at the same time think that because of the possibility of error or the rarity of such worst crimes or general clemency or whatever the death penalty should be abolished anyway.) It turns out I am apparently a national socialist (or maybe "catholic workers party" ;) I think the marriage question made me strongly conservative which I am only in very few respects but apparently the ones salient today despite being mostly mainstream and not particular traditionalist only a few decades ago.). I don't know how I became so "national" as I tried answer most of these rather neutral. But it is probably again the case that such an amount of "globalism" has become the norm that the mere regulation of migration is considered "nationalist".
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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1173 on: December 05, 2019, 05:02:47 AM »
I remember the author pointing out that the image of 'England' is always identified with the countryside, the village green, tea on the lawn, the English landscape (think of all those Vaughan Williams and Elgar record sleeve images). He argues that Britain never incorporated industrialisation into its national self-image and it remained a kind of 'dirty' word - unacceptable to our ruling elite whose values resided (as they often did) in the countryside. If we think of America we think of the landscape and the cities (think of those Copland record sleeves). Britain never came to terms with its industrial pre-eminence which remained excluded from the national self-image. That's his argument as far as I remember anyway!

Yes, look at all those “Escape to the Country” house hunting programmes. There’s never been an “Escape to the City” series. When we part timers drive out to the country for a walk we see all those people who escaped stuck in the traffic jams on the other side of the road on their way into the city ::).
"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better." - Albert Einstein

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1174 on: December 05, 2019, 05:27:08 AM »
Yes, look at all those “Escape to the Country” house hunting programmes. There’s never been an “Escape to the City” series. When we part timers drive out to the country for a walk we see all those people who escaped stuck in the traffic jams on the other side of the road on their way into the city ::).

Do you not remember the episode of Minder where Arthur Daley had to go on a trip to the countryside?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Y0OiBFvgqUw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Y0OiBFvgqUw</a>
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 05:29:19 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1175 on: December 05, 2019, 06:49:43 AM »
Yes, look at all those “Escape to the Country” house hunting programmes. There’s never been an “Escape to the City” series. When we part timers drive out to the country for a walk we see all those people who escaped stuck in the traffic jams on the other side of the road on their way into the city ::).
Very true!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1176 on: December 05, 2019, 07:12:41 AM »
Not sure about the Britain-specifics, but the questions were not very nuanced and also loaded.

Of course. Take this one, for instance: "Immigration is good for Britain's economy". How are we supposed to answer this without knowing what kind of immigration we are talking about?

Or this one: "Capital punishment is the most appropriate for certain types of crimes." This is true in abstracto, but it doesn't follow that it should really be applied.

“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” — Claude Debussy

Offline Irons

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1177 on: December 05, 2019, 08:15:17 AM »
Of course. Take this one, for instance: "Immigration is good for Britain's economy". How are we supposed to answer this without knowing what kind of immigration we are talking about?

Or this one: "Capital punishment is the most appropriate for certain types of crimes." This is true in abstracto, but it doesn't follow that it should really be applied.

Immigration was a big deal in the 2017 UK election, before that no politician dare mention it in fear of being called a racist. Oddly, I say that because it could be claimed that immigration was the driving force of Brexit, in the current election campaign it has hardly been mentioned, and when it has only half-heartedly.

I agree, capital punishment, although in some heinous crimes we wish it, is a non-starter - don't go there.   
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1178 on: December 05, 2019, 10:08:11 AM »
What do you make of this, from the Tory manifesto

Quote
We will ensure that
judicial review . . .  is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays.

Is this the beginning of the state putting itself above the law?
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1179 on: December 05, 2019, 10:39:28 AM »
What do you make of this, from the Tory manifesto

Is this the beginning of the state putting itself above the law?
IMO Yes. It's a catastrophe.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).