Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 147495 times)

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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1500 on: December 28, 2020, 07:10:30 AM »
Proportional representation will not happen in the foreseeable future if ever at all. It works on the continent but not the UK. The British electorate have no interest in it as was proved by the referendum result in 2011.

As most people had voted for either the Conservative or Labour Party in the inconclusive 2010 election which resulted in the tiny Liberal Party minority having the power to decide which of those two they’d work with. A “tail wagging the dog” scenario.
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Online MusicTurner

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1501 on: December 28, 2020, 07:24:01 AM »
In the long run, such systems tend to result in more parties emerging though, and therefore more available combinations.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 07:26:20 AM by MusicTurner »

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1502 on: December 28, 2020, 10:16:51 AM »
I understand there is a political agreement between the UK and the EU commission.
The lawyers of both sides are now going one last time through the 2000 pages of the treaty (because that is what it is).
Up next are the governments of the member states and the UK Parliament. They will have to agree before the treaty will enter into force provisionally, pending the consent of the European Parliament and the parliaments of all member states.

So, all kind of things could still go wrong before the deal is final. As was illustrated with the trade deal with Canada, when the parliament of Wallonia, the Francophone part of Belgium, initially refused ratification.

Q

Correction: a political decision has been made that the EU alone will be party to this treaty with the UK. Therefore additional consent by the national parliaments is not forseen, just that of the governments as members of the Council and the European Parliament.

Q
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 12:33:15 PM by Que »

Offline André

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1503 on: December 28, 2020, 10:43:18 AM »

Proportional representation will not happen in the foreseeable future if ever at all. It works on the continent but not the UK. The British electorate have no interest in it as was proved by the referendum result in 2011.


This reminds me of an exchange between constable Crabtree and detective Murdoch in an episode of Murdoch Mysteries, set in 1896. Crabtree brings a cup of coffee (new and rare then) to the detective. « It’s all the rage, Sir ». « Berk! It’s so bitter. It will never catch. Who would want that when you can have a cup of tea? ».

Splendid isolation and all that... ::)

Offline Iota

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1504 on: December 28, 2020, 12:45:55 PM »
Glad we got a deal, which although a pale shadow of what we had, is in the short-term economically clearly far preferable to no-deal.

I have wondered at times, if in the long-term a no-deal might have ultimately meant a stronger economy in the mid-term future, forcing a bigger shake-up and more dynamic response (as in Germany and Japan after WWII for example, though obviously that situation of a different order of magnitude). But that's pure speculation and I certainly wouldn't want it anyway, because of the inevitable short-term suffering.

I also wonder had it not been for the pandemic and its huge economic impact, if we would indeed have left with no-deal. The pressure created for a deal was obviously far greater, and tipped the balance heavily in favour of pragmatism over rash adventurism. But then again, with ideology involved there were no guarantees ..

On the idea of Britain renegotiating some kind of re-entry to the EU at some point, that does seem rather far off at the moment, particularly with the rise of nationalist tendencies all around. (And the sheer loss of the will to live at the mention of another EU referendum ..  ::))

Offline Madiel

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1505 on: December 28, 2020, 12:58:20 PM »
It’ll be a long long time before England looks at rejoining the EU.

It will be a far shorter time before Scotland does so. Given that half the battle in the previous Scottish independence referendum was over EU membership, and given Scotland voted against Brexit, the claims from Westminster that a Scottish independence vote was a once in a generation thing are just ludicrous.
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Offline JBS

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1506 on: December 28, 2020, 06:00:35 PM »
This reminds me of an exchange between constable Crabtree and detective Murdoch in an episode of Murdoch Mysteries, set in 1896. Crabtree brings a cup of coffee (new and rare then) to the detective. « It’s all the rage, Sir ». « Berk! It’s so bitter. It will never catch. Who would want that when you can have a cup of tea? ».

Splendid isolation and all that... ::)

New and rare? Perhaps being revived at that time, but coffee was an essential element in building England's financial and cultural institutions
https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/English-Coffeehouses-Penny-Universities/#:~:text=In%20London%2C%20the%20first%20one,the%20news%20of%20the%20day.

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Offline Iota

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1507 on: December 30, 2020, 10:10:41 AM »
Starmer has already voiced his opposition to Scottish independence and wants to transform the UK into a federal state instead.
An excellent idea that has been propagated for years by experts. But it might be too little too late and Brexit, which would paradoxically have never happened in a federal setup, might have closed that door for good. Besides: how and when would Starmer get into power with a Labour government to get this done?

Still, a transition to a federal system and proportional representation is IMO the only chance for the UK to survive as an entity.
But I cannot see that happening, unless the moderate Conservatives regain control of their party and form an alliance with Starmer's Labout to make it happen.

I agree, a federal system seems an eminently sensible and practical way forward, and in many ways in keeping with the spirit of the times. As we have three devolved legislatures in the UK already, we're already semi-federal anyway you could say. Though I don't quite see how a devolved English parliament would work in tandem with the Westminster government.

Of course I imagine Brexiteers in governmnent wouldn't be so keen on autonomy when it comes to giving it to others ..

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1508 on: December 30, 2020, 10:21:25 AM »
Of course I imagine Brexiteers in governmnent wouldn't be so keen on autonomy when it comes to giving it to others ..

Exactly. And I think for that reason the inevitable is unavoidable.  ::)

Q

Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1509 on: December 30, 2020, 11:49:06 AM »
This reminds me of an exchange between constable Crabtree and detective Murdoch in an episode of Murdoch Mysteries, set in 1896. Crabtree brings a cup of coffee (new and rare then) to the detective. « It’s all the rage, Sir ». « Berk! It’s so bitter. It will never catch. Who would want that when you can have a cup of tea? ».

Splendid isolation and all that... ::)

Ahem!... They are Canadians, not Englishmen.  The only English-born character is Insp. Brackenreid and he's more of the whisky than the tea persusasion.  :D
“Bloody hell!... I could use a drink!”

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1510 on: January 01, 2021, 04:47:28 AM »
Last update: Spain and the UK have reached agreement on Gibraltar.
The rules of the Schengen Agreement will apply to Gibraltar, so people can freely cross the border between Spain and Gibraltar.

Spain and UK strike deal to avoid hard border in Gibraltar after Brexit





So long...

Offline Madiel

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1511 on: January 01, 2021, 03:03:09 PM »
I'm sure there will be certain UK citizens who will be completely outraged at the prospect of having to go through a border checkpoint on arriving at Gibraltar's airport.
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Online MusicTurner

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1512 on: January 02, 2021, 03:17:00 AM »
Last update: Spain and the UK have reached agreement on Gibraltar.
The rules of the Schengen Agreement will apply to Gibraltar, so people can freely cross the border between Spain and Gibraltar.

Spain and UK strike deal to avoid hard border in Gibraltar after Brexit





So long...

I've once been cycling down there, and due to the intense traffic of cars between the regions, anything else would have become very, very difficult.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 04:09:59 AM by MusicTurner »

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1513 on: January 12, 2021, 02:37:11 AM »
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 02:39:32 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online Mandryka

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1514 on: January 12, 2021, 03:44:55 AM »
Ham Sandwich Incident at Dutch Border:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/11/dutch-officials-seize-ham-sandwiches-from-british-drivers

And I bet those bastards will confiscate bananas too, if they're not straight.



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Offline Madiel

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #1515 on: January 12, 2021, 04:13:21 AM »
Well that one was never true.
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Offline Que

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1516 on: January 15, 2021, 01:09:34 AM »
If Brexit, and the Tories, had any support in Scotland it was in its fishing communities, who bought into to the golden future that was promised.

That dream has now come to an end:

Brexit ‘seafood crisis’ no joke for Scottish fishing fleets
Industry bodies are angry after trade friction was met wet with a joke about ‘happier fish.’


My heart goes out to these fishermen.
But doesn't it make sense that any amount of fish you catch is absolutely useless if you can't sell it?  ::)

Q

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1517 on: January 16, 2021, 02:33:33 AM »
What went wrong?  ::) I guess posing the question,  is answering it.

Brexit trade problems: what’s gone wrong and can it be fixed?

Spoiler:

[But] there are limits to what can be realistically achieved. The limited ambition of the TCA in addressing trade barriers between the EU and the UK should not come as a surprise. It is a direct consequence of political decisions made by the UK and the EU. Unless priorities change, these barriers are here to stay.

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1518 on: January 17, 2021, 03:28:51 AM »
When I read the article below, I was reminded of the other day, when I had to cancel an order for some clothing items for my wife from the UK. I had put in the order in december, but there was some delay and the items couldn't be shipped until now.
Faced with the extra costs of receiving the package from the UK, I decided to cancel the order all together. After some searching on the internet, I found a EU based supplier for the items.
And I won't be orderering anything over €22  from the UK again.

Larger business in the UK have been setting up seperate continental branches for dealing with online orders from the EU.
Small businesses were unable to do that, and will be really hurt if they served a large clientele in the EU.

Shock Brexit charges are hurting us, say small British businesses


Q
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 04:14:12 AM by Que »

Offline Iota

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1519 on: January 17, 2021, 06:15:11 AM »
Larger business in the UK have been setting up seperate continental branches for dealing with online orders from the EU.
Small businesses were unable to do that, and will be really hurt if they served a large clientele in the EU.

Shock Brexit charges are hurting us, say small British businesses


Q

Indeed.

“There is the potential to make some changes if both sides agree – that is in the deal,” said one leader of a UK business organisation. “But there is not much goodwill in the EU to help British business now. Business people like us can ask for more talks with the EU but optimism that we will get anywhere is in short supply.”

Hardly surprising after the merry dance they've been led by the UK. Great to have control of our borders again ..  ::)


Brexit customs arrangements are hurting fresh food businesses too. Perhaps by 'oven-ready deal', Boris Johnson meant ready for incineration.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."