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Brexit

Started by vandermolen, May 01, 2017, 10:14:35 PM

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Irons

Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2021, 02:55:08 AM
Actually, what would make me happy is a EU less plagued by such problems.  ;)

My point about Brexit is that motivated or not, reasonable or not, likeable or not, it is done. Dissecting its whys and hows over and over again is not going to undo it. The sooner EU and UK get over it and go their own ways (which may or may not cross), the better for both of them.

As for English pride, it's paralleled only by the French one.  ;D

I wish.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Irons

Quote from: Papy Oli on May 11, 2021, 12:49:48 AM
At least Sarkozy has been and is being trialled for his offences  ;)

Here, you can just pretend the ministerial code of conduct (which Boris signed too...  pattern, what pattern..  ;) ) doesn't exist and carry on willy-nilly, ignore any accountability, and worse, win vote after vote. Turning a blind eye on what that wallpaper issue actually is and think it's ok is sadly part of the problem. The French would have probably worn yellow jackets in the street for less than that  ;D
Here we just pile up praise on the bumbling fool  :blank:

Johnson is a lot of things but "bumbling fool" he is not. That the forces against him underestimate him is his strength. His personal life is chaotic with ex-wives and live-in girlfriends, but do you know what, this mirrors how people live in this day and age - and I'm saying that as someone who will proudly celebrate a 50 year wedding anniversary in December - the good folk of Cleethorpes and Hartlepool could not give a toss where his wallpaper comes from, with the proviso it is not tax payers money. That would be serious.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Papy Oli

Quote from: Irons on May 11, 2021, 07:13:08 AM
Johnson is a lot of things but "bumbling fool" he is not. That the forces against him underestimate him is his strength. His personal life is chaotic with ex-wives and live-in girlfriends, but do you know what, this mirrors how people live in this day and age - and I'm saying that as someone who will proudly celebrate a 50 year wedding anniversary in December - the good folk of Cleethorpes and Hartlepool could not give a toss where his wallpaper comes from, with the proviso it is not tax payers money. That would be serious.

We agree, the financing source of the refurbishment is the heart of the issue. Maybe one day we'll find out...or probably not.

What you are saying above raises more questions for me but we'd better move on, we could argue respectfully until we are blue/red/yellow/green/Plaid Cymru in the face (tick where applicable)  :P 

Also I have a Tuesday pork roast to prepare (see, I still love England) ;D

Olivier

Que

Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2021, 01:59:07 AM
An interesting analysis but, I think, rather sweeping in places.
Agreed.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2021, 02:55:08 AM
Actually, what would make me happy is a EU less plagued by such problems.  ;)

Me too!  :)

QuoteMy point about Brexit is that motivated or not, reasonable or not, likeable or not, it is done. Dissecting its whys and hows over and over again is not going to undo it. The sooner EU and UK get over it and go their own ways (which may or may not cross), the better for both of them.

Here we have a different perspective... I don't think Brexit is done, and I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Why? Because Brexit hasn't resolved the difficulties surrounding the relationship between the UK and the rest of Europe. It has only deepened them. Europe is too important for the UK's safety and prosperity to ignore. And reversely the UK is too important for the future of the EU.

vandermolen

Quote from: Que on May 11, 2021, 08:18:43 AM

Here we have a different perspective... I don't think Brexit is done, and I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Why? Because Brexit hasn't resolved the difficulties surrounding the relationship between the UK and the rest of Europe. It has only deepened them. Europe is too important for the UK's safety and prosperity to ignore. And reversely the UK is too important for the future of the EU.
Agreed  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on May 11, 2021, 11:08:10 PM
Agreed  :)

The thing I find difficult to understand Jeffrey is that we joined the European Free Market and of course we wanted to. As a trading collective it was and is second to none. Since the Maastricht Treaty the EU has taken a political role and even mooted an Army. Have we not Nato to protect world piece?

I read in my newspaper that Barnier plans to restrict immigration to the EU. 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Madiel

Quote from: Irons on May 12, 2021, 12:05:29 AM
The thing I find difficult to understand Jeffrey is that we joined the European Free Market and of course we wanted to. As a trading collective it was and is second to none. Since the Maastricht Treaty the EU has taken a political role and even mooted an Army. Have we not Nato to protect world piece?

I read in my newspaper that Barnier plans to restrict immigration to the EU.

I would agree, as an outside observer, that the EU has gone to some curious places without seemingly having a proper discussion about what the EU's role actually is. In some ways it's occupying an uncanny valley between being a group of nations cooperating with each other and being a nation in and of itself.

The Euro was the thing that really highlighted this for me (of course the UK never became part of the Eurozone). The Euro was great for Germany, but really quite terrible for some countries such as Greece who lost control of a key tool in fiscal policy (currency fluctuation), while supposedly still being responsible for their own fiscal policy.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

The new erato

Quote from: Madiel on May 12, 2021, 01:36:06 AM
I would agree, as an outside observer, that the EU has gone to some curious places without seemingly having a proper discussion about what the EU's role actually is. In some ways it's occupying an uncanny valley between being a group of nations cooperating with each other and being a nation in and of itself.

The Euro was the thing that really highlighted this for me (of course the UK never became part of the Eurozone). The Euro was great for Germany, but really quite terrible for some countries such as Greece who lost control of a key tool in fiscal policy (currency fluctuation), while supposedly still being responsible for their own fiscal policy.
+1 from me. Particularly regarding the Euro.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on May 12, 2021, 12:05:29 AM
The thing I find difficult to understand Jeffrey is that we joined the European Free Market and of course we wanted to. As a trading collective it was and is second to none. Since the Maastricht Treaty the EU has taken a political role and even mooted an Army. Have we not Nato to protect world piece?

I read in my newspaper that Barnier plans to restrict immigration to the EU.
Totally agree Lol. We also had EFTA which was a purely trading organisation. I was never happy about the political side of the EU, although I guess that it gave Europe more voice in the face of an aggressive USSR/Russia/China.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Que

Quote from: Irons on May 12, 2021, 12:05:29 AM
The thing I find difficult to understand Jeffrey is that we joined the European Free Market and of course we wanted to. As a trading collective it was and is second to none. Since the Maastricht Treaty the EU has taken a political role and even mooted an Army. Have we not Nato to protect world piece?

I totally understand this perspective from the UK,  and it has been clear throughout its membership that it was in for the economic cooperation and not for a politcal union. And the debate leading to Brexit was very much about the choice between staying in the Union, or to leave but remain part of the free (internal) market.

But somehow the take-back-control narrative poisened the debate after the referendum to the extent that it turned into an all-or-nothing game, and the UK ended up outside the internal market. Which still doesn't make any sense... I therefore expect the UK to move  back towards closer economic cooperation with the EU in the future. Possibly rejoining the internal market with some codecision arrangements.

Irons

I was beginning to feel in a lonely place, so thanks to Madiel, The New erato, vandermolen and Que for banishing the thought. Let me be clear, I'm not a little Englander, far from it, I love the cultures of the countries that make up the EU and traveling to them is an enriching experience. The referendum was political expediency by the Tories to nullify Farage who was a grave threat to them remaining in power. The miss-calculation was that huge swathes of the UK were fed up and the referendum was a way of showing it. Where I blame the EU is that they miss-calculated also. When Cameron came with the begging bowl they said sod off and get on with it! It was this that set the wheels of Brexit in motion. Now it is the blame-game on both sides. Very sad. 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on May 12, 2021, 07:12:15 AM
I was beginning to feel in a lonely place, so thanks to Madiel, The New erato, vandermolen and Que for banishing the thought. Let me be clear, I'm not a little Englander, far from it, I love the cultures of the countries that make up the EU and traveling to them is an enriching experience. The referendum was political expediency by the Tories to nullify Farage who was a grave threat to them remaining in power. The miss-calculation was that huge swathes of the UK were fed up and the referendum was a way of showing it. Where I blame the EU is that they miss-calculated also. When Cameron came with the begging bowl they said sod off and get on with it! It was this that set the wheels of Brexit in motion. Now it is the blame-game on both sides. Very sad.
+1 I agree - all v depressing I must say. For Johnson I think that supporting Brexit was a cynical calculation in order to become PM.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on May 13, 2021, 09:17:13 AM
+1 I agree - all v depressing I must say. For Johnson I think that supporting Brexit was a cynical calculation in order to become PM.

Yes, I think so too. Cameron backed the wrong horse and fell on his sword. With the events surrounding Greensill probably good thing he has gone. Once the Brexit die was cast oddly I think it advantageous not to have a rabid Brexiteer steering the ship. Johnson for all his faults, aware the list is long, is possibly the right man at the right time. You have to ask, who else?
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Madiel

Quote from: Irons on May 14, 2021, 07:25:47 AM
Once the Brexit die was cast oddly I think it advantageous not to have a rabid Brexiteer steering the ship.

Once the Brexit die was cast, folk like Boris Johnson were more than happy to let Teresa May be the one steering the ship.

It's an old trick. The one time women are allowed to have power is when things look bad. All the men step back so that they don't have to cop the trouble they can all see coming. They'll wait for afterwards.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Irons

Quote from: Madiel on May 15, 2021, 03:42:57 AM
Once the Brexit die was cast, folk like Boris Johnson were more than happy to let Teresa May be the one steering the ship.

It's an old trick. The one time women are allowed to have power is when things look bad. All the men step back so that they don't have to cop the trouble they can all see coming. They'll wait for afterwards.

Odd that May was one of the best Home Secretaries in modern times but a poor PM. The men stepped back when Maggie Thatcher took over and when they stepped forward she bashed them with her handbag!
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

JBS

Quote from: Irons on May 15, 2021, 06:26:17 AM
Odd that May was one of the best Home Secretaries in modern times but a poor PM. The men stepped back when Maggie Thatcher took over and when they stepped forward she bashed them with her handbag!

To me, sitting across the ocean, it seems as if May honestly tried to square the circle, whereas Johnson it was enough to look like he was trying.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: JBS on May 15, 2021, 07:43:44 AM
To me, sitting across the ocean, it seems as if May honestly tried to square the circle, whereas Johnson it was enough to look like he was trying.
Not totally certain what you mean about trying to square the circle, but I do think that she was trying hard to look our for the UK's interests and dealing with an awful situation to begin with.  And yes, I agree with you what I've read/seen about Johnson from this side of the pond.  Do most British people here feel the same?  Mind you, this is an outsider's perception.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Madiel

Quote from: JBS on May 15, 2021, 07:43:44 AM
To me, sitting across the ocean, it seems as if May honestly tried to square the circle, whereas Johnson it was enough to look like he was trying.

Exactly.

I also note that when she won the leadership, it was against another woman.

Australia too has a considerable history at State/Territory level of women being allowed to have the leadership when things look dire.
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Irons

Quote from: JBS on May 15, 2021, 07:43:44 AM
To me, sitting across the ocean, it seems as if May honestly tried to square the circle, whereas Johnson it was enough to look like he was trying.

Nail on head - impossible to square a circle. I was judging May not so much as a person but as a politician. She announced she would not call an election, then did. Worse, after a disastrous campaign she had a wafer-thin majority and had to resort to bribing the DUP to bail her out. Her political weakness was a huge advantage for the EU in Brexit negotiations which they made full advantage of - so they should. It was only after Johnson won a thumping majority that Brexit happened, for good or ill but what the electorate voted for.   
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Madiel

Quote from: Irons on May 16, 2021, 12:53:25 AM
It was only after Johnson won a thumping majority that Brexit happened, for good or ill but what the electorate voted for.   

You do realise that half the time May had members of her own party voting against the deal with the EU?

It was a colossal mess. May was completely right when she said to the whole House of Commons, they kept saying what they didn't want and couldn't articulate what they DID want. Every permutation would come up with a minority.

And how did Johnson get past that? By doing a deal with the EU but then almost immediately turning around and suggesting that the UK would breach international law when it felt like it. I guess that was May's mistake in your eyes, eh, actually trying to play by the rules.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!