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Brexit

Started by vandermolen, May 01, 2017, 10:14:35 PM

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Biffo

Quote from: Turner on November 02, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Marc Galeotti:
"How Putin could yet save Britain from Brexit ... there is a growing likelihood that later this year or early next we will see solid evidence of financial support for the Brexit camp, too ...likely to be revealed over the course of the several inquiries taking place on the other side of the Atlantic."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/02/putin-save-britain-brexit-russia-eu-referendum?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interesting, but the scenario is probably not that likely (?)

More tendentious nonsense from the EU's official fanzine.

Turner

Quote from: Biffo on November 02, 2017, 02:29:08 PM
More tendentious nonsense from the EU's official fanzine.

Galeotti is very knowledgeable on Russia at least, and the info on that subject is interesting. We´ll see if he is right in this case, regarding the prospects of new, UK-related revelations.

kishnevi

Quote from: Turner on November 02, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Marc Galeotti:
"How Putin could yet save Britain from Brexit ... there is a growing likelihood that later this year or early next we will see solid evidence of financial support for the Brexit camp, too ...likely to be revealed over the course of the several inquiries taking place on the other side of the Atlantic."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/02/putin-save-britain-brexit-russia-eu-referendum?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interesting, but the scenario is probably not that likely (?)

As likely to annul Brexit as to de-elect Trump.

Que

#183
I can't see Putin's interference lead to an annulment either - who is going to admit that the whole thing was manipulated by Putin?  ::)

Anyway, I don't think anyone can ever prove that his interference was successful, but he did try and got the result he wanted.....

US in the hands of a fool and the UK off the cliff, Putin must be ecstatic....


Considering the way things are going with the Brexit negotiations: the EU might offer an extension of the negotiations, probably on the condition that there is at least agreement on the divorce settlement. Naturally Conservative hardliners will resist the idea of a delay, so there will be more political drama.

Q

Christo

Quote from: Que on November 02, 2017, 10:28:05 PM
US in the hands of a fool and the UK off the cliff, Putin must be ecstatic....

:) Except that he lacks the power to really take advantage of it, having already overplayed his hand with the war against Ukraine - and not being able to deal with the boycott that will eventually lead to the end of his regime.
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Turbot nouveaux

Quote from: Biffo on November 02, 2017, 02:29:08 PM
More tendentious nonsense from the EU's official fanzine.

However tendentious Galeotti's opinion piece was, the Graun is very far from being an EU fanzine. ::) It also has a tradition of printing pieces from people holding all sprts of opinions - including at times, people I regard as howling mad right-wingers.

Biffo

I read The Guardian for many years and I am well aware of its character; I still see many of its articles online on a daily basis. Since the EU referendum it has carried fake news about Brexit on a daily basis. This includes speculative items from right-wing think tanks, self-interested businessmen, economists etc - all the kind of people it wouldn't have given the time of day to previously.

Its print circulation is dropping like a stone and it has now sold off its last assets; in future it is to be printed in tabloid format by the Daily Mirror (this may have already happened) - a sensible financial arrangement and I have nothing against the DM. It is still heavily in debt and its popular online version is losing money. Nearly all the printed media is losing circulation but The Guardian is now the smallest selling national daily and can't last much longer in its print form. Perhaps the editor needs to realise that there are many people of a liberal or centre-left persuasion who think the EU is an abomination.

Spineur

Things arent getting any better

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-envoys/eu-states-see-britain-failing-to-meet-brexit-divorce-terms-idUKKBN1D8351

"It's impossible to get any bespoke trade deal in two years or so," said an EU parliament official who deals with Brexit. "And for all that time the UK would be an EU colony -- forced to accept all our laws with no say.


Christo

Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2017, 01:03:57 AMthere are many people of a liberal or centre-left persuasion who think the EU is an abomination
, not so much based on facts, but on an irreversible fiction: as if Brussels were a dark power center that could make any decisions against the interests of the member states. This fiction is indeed so widespread that, for that reason alone, I'm content with Brexit and I think all other member states are: it will put an end to this stubborn myth, even though the consequences for the British Isles will be quite catastrophic.  :-X
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Que

Quote from: Biffo on November 07, 2017, 01:03:57 AM
I read The Guardian for many years and I am well aware of its character; I still see many of its articles online on a daily basis. Since the EU referendum it has carried fake news about Brexit on a daily basis. This includes speculative items from right-wing think tanks, self-interested businessmen, economists etc - all the kind of people it wouldn't have given the time of day to previously.

[...]

Perhaps the editor needs to realise that there are many people of a liberal or centre-left persuasion who think the EU is an abomination.

You got me confused with your introduction, considering that The Guardian strikes me as being liberal-progressive: favouring a regulated free market economy and socially progressive. And that doesn't match the accusation of featuring hardline right wing "fake news"
I guess its support of a global trade, free market economy makes it suspect in your eyes. Even if the free market is restricted and regultated to benefit social policies, public health and the environment.

You must be a fan of Corbyn...  :)

As to the EU being an abomination...
What has the UK membership of the largest democratic economic and political alliance on the planet ever done to you?
Apart from bringing decades of unprecedented peace and prosperity?  ::)
When the UK joined is was the "sick man" of Europe. Now it is the fith-largest economy in the world and (used to be) a major player in the Union.

I agree with Christo: only if Brexit goes ahead, this festering fantasy of total self control in splendid isolation can be brought to an end.
None of the UK's major domestic issues, like social and economic inequality and rural decline, will improve by Brexit.

After the Tories have finished themselves off, I don't think Corbyn won't have a penny left to pay for his socialist fantasies.
Sorry.... ::)

Q

Biffo

Quote from: Que on November 08, 2017, 11:04:58 PM
You got me confused with your introduction, considering that The Guardian strikes me as being liberal-progressive: favouring a regulated free market economy and socially progressive. And that doesn't match the accusation of featuring hardline right wing "fake news"
I guess its support of a global trade, free market economy makes it suspect in your eyes. Even if the free market is restricted and regultated to benefit social policies, public health and the environment.

You must be a fan of Corbyn...  :)

As to the EU being an abomination...
What has the UK membership of the largest democratic economic and political alliance on the planet ever done to you?
Apart from bringing decades of unprecedented peace and prosperity?  ::)
When the UK joined is was the "sick man" of Europe. Now it is the fith-largest economy in the world and (used to be) a major player in the Union.

I agree with Christo: only if Brexit goes ahead, this festering fantasy of total self control in splendid isolation can be brought to an end.
None of the UK's major domestic issues, like social and economic inequality and rural decline, will improve by Brexit.

After the Tories have finished themselves off, I don't think Corbyn won't have a penny left to pay for his socialist fantasies.
Sorry.... ::)

Q

I read The Guardian for nearly 40 years and, as I said there was a time when it wouldn't have given the time of day to the sort of people I mentioned, now it will print any old anti-Brexit.

As for peace and prosperity, two massive foreign armies of occupation - one American the other Soviet - kept the peace, the prosperity flowed from that naturally.

There is far too much in your posting for me to answer today, I don't have the time. Tomorrow I am off to France for three weeks to top up my xenophobia levels.

Florestan

Quote from: Biffo on November 09, 2017, 12:51:31 AM
As for peace and prosperity, two massive foreign armies of occupation - one American the other Soviet - kept the peace, the prosperity flowed from that naturally.

Yeah right, the peace and prosperity that flowed in Eastern and Central Europe from the Soviet Army occupation were indeed unprecedented.

Seriously now, any comparison between the real, harsh and hard military occupation of the Eastern and Central European countries by the Soviets, and the "Pax Americana" in Western Europe is intellectually and morally indefensible.

As for EU, it has its flaws and shortcomings, just like each and every other political institution created by humans, but it's far from being an abomination. The principle is sound and the main goals are reasonable. The problem lies rather with national leaders, who mostly lack the wisdom, will and moral courage required by the challenges they face.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Biffo

Quote from: Florestan on November 09, 2017, 01:25:28 AM
Yeah right, the peace and prosperity that flowed in Eastern and Central Europe from the Soviet Army occupation were indeed unprecedented.

Seriously now, any comparison between the real, harsh and hard military occupation of the Eastern and Central European countries by the Soviets, and the "Pax Americana" in Western Europe is intellectually and morally indefensible.

As for EU, it has its flaws and shortcomings, just like each and every other political institution created by humans, but it's far from being an abomination. The principle is sound and the main goals are reasonable. The problem lies rather with national leaders, who mostly lack the wisdom, will and moral courage required by the challenges they face.

We are discussing the European Union not the Soviet Bloc, I am making no comparison between the two. Western Europe, not just the EU flourished because of the peace and in some cases because it no longer had to pay for its own defence.

Florestan

Quote from: Biffo on November 09, 2017, 01:41:10 AM
We are discussing the European Union not the Soviet Bloc

Then why did you bring in the Soviet Army?

QuoteWestern Europe, not just the EU flourished because of the peace and in some cases because it no longer had to pay for its own defence.

Peace by itself is not sufficient for prosperity. Political, economic and civil freedom are essential ingredients as well.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Spineur

The other big problem with Brexit negotiation are the dissension within May's government.  May wants to keep a quotas for university students because they comes in official statistics.  The rest of her government wants to exclude this population because it brings in billions and is also a source cheap and highly qualified labor for UK universities.  The clash is here between the Theresa May dogmatic views and the pragmatic approach of most of her cabinet.




Marc

#195
I stopped taking the whole Brexit thing seriously after Boris's claim about the bananas.
IMHO, it's a disaster for any country when clowns like Johnson can rise to great heights.
And I'm just not able to believe Theresa May anymore. When political sentiments and opinions change, I bet she'd immediately jump on another train.

About the Guardian: I don't agree that newspaper editors and journalists should 'realize' what their readers want to read. I want the press to be as independent as possible. I would prefer journalists and editors to use their own brains, analyze events and developments, think for themselves, and publish it.

In these times, where people apparantly only want to hear and read the things they want to hear and read, any huge loss of readers and subscribers is IMO a proof of high quality and independence.

Turner

Quote from: Marc on November 09, 2017, 02:18:00 AM

About the Guardian: I don't agree that newspaper editors and journalists should 'realize' what their readers want to read. I want the press to be as independent as possible. I would prefer journalists and editors to use their own brains, analyze events and developments, think for themselves, and publish it.

+1, of course.
A quality newspaper may overall lean towards one side or aspect politically, but it should represent a lot of different views, all the time.

Turner

Farage on the necessity to ignore clever people in general.


https://twitter.com/Henry_Langston/status/928910798596050944

Jo498

Quote from: Marc on November 09, 2017, 02:18:00 AM
I stopped taking the whole Brexit thing seriously after Boris's claim about the bananas.
IMHO, it's a disaster for any country when clowns like Johnson can rise to great heights.
I fear that this has become so frequent in so many countries that it might be a feature, not a bug...
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Florestan

Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2017, 12:34:28 AM
I fear that this has become so frequent in so many countries that it might be a feature, not a bug...

+ 1.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini