GMG's Greatest Opera Poll of 2017

[Mahlerian]

I said earlier in the thread I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, and Wagner did intend them to be performed together.
Anyone else here want to offer their opinion? It's up for discussion and I don't plan on tallying votes for a while.

The four works can be and are performed separately.  Each one has its own distinct aesthetic and they were not written without any break.  There is no doubt that they are intimately connected and that each one develops the motifs presented in the preceding ones, but we can gain a fuller understanding of them if we recognize their differences as well as their continuity.

[Ken B]

I said earlier in the thread I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, and Wagner did intend them to be performed together.
Anyone else here want to offer their opinion? It's up for discussion and I don't plan on tallying votes for a while.

One argument, aside from artistic unity, is that otherwise we get a distorted result due to vote splitting. Walkure will get the most but the others will all catch one or more.

Mahlerian's argument is refuted by the leitmotif structure. Also by Wagner's clear intent as expressed in setting up Bayreuth and limiting performances of the early ones beyond what was financially necessary until the last was completed.

[ritter]

Here goes:

Wagner Parsifal (10 points)
Wagner Meistersinger (9 points)
Mozart Don Giovanni (8 points)
Debussy Pelléas et Mélisande (7 points)
Mozart Le Nozze di Figaro (6 points)
Verdi Falstaff (5 points)
Berg Lulu (4 points)
Berlioz Les Troyens (3 points)
Monteverdi L'Orfeo (2 points)
Enescu Oedipe (1 point)


Guys, just vote for Parsifal, and the whole Ring problem (is it one opera , is it four--an almost theological discussion) disappears... 

[Jo498]

10 Mozart: Don Giovanni
9 Beethoven: Fidelio
8 Purcell: Dido & Aeneas
7 Wagner: Tristan
6 Mozart: Figaro
5 Mozart: Magic Flute
4 Handel: Alcina
3 Verdi: Rigoletto
2 Weber: Freischütz
1 Puccini: Tosca

[Mahlerian]

Mahlerian's argument is refuted by the leitmotif structure.

How?  I think I mentioned that part.

Guys, just vote for Parsifal, and the whole Ring problem (is it one opera , is it four--an almost theological discussion) disappears... 

I will admit that I seriously considered this...

[Ken B]

How?  I think I mentioned that part.

All your arguments can be applied to the Goldberg Variations or the Diabelli Variations. They were written over time, perforce (and I'm keen to learn of any extended piece which was completed in an instant or even an hour). Each variation can be performed or contemplated alone to understand their differences and the continuity. Or what about Glass's music in 12 parts? Or what about Brahms's first symphony, which he worked on over years. That's no reason to not see it as one piece.

[Mahlerian]

All your arguments can be applied to the Goldberg Variations or the Diabelli Variations. They were written over time, perforce (and I'm keen to learn of any extended piece which was completed in an instant or even an hour). Each variation can be performed or contemplated alone to understand their differences and the continuity.

I was not saying that the Ring cycle was written over the course of a few years and therefore it's not a single work, I'm saying that it's a collection of related works, and that other works were written in-between the parts (specifically between the first part of Siegfried and the last parts of the cycle).

The Goldberg Variations may be a poor example, because Bach did not likely imagine that anyone would play through the set at a single sitting, much as we may think it gains from such treatment.

Or what about Glass's music in 12 parts?

Again, written as a cycle of separate works, and easily and satisfyingly performed separately.

Or what about Brahms's first symphony, which he worked on over years.

The time was not the main issue, but the separability and individuality of the parts.  A symphonic movement cannot as satisfyingly be performed on its own, and all of the successful symphonies I know have a single overriding aesthetic that binds them together.  The various operas of the Ring cycle are quite disparate in their musical style, despite shared material, and are each satisfying in their own right.

That's no reason to not see it as one piece.

Wait, I thought you said the leitmotif structure disproved my argument.  You didn't say how that was.

[Mirror Image]

Oh jeez...guys can we not argue about whether Wagner's Ring is a single work or a collection of works? I mean surely you guys can take this conversation to another thread? (Hint: the Wagner composer thread.)

Let's keep those lists coming GMGers!

[TheGSMoeller]

Walkure will get the most but the others will all catch one or more.

I am guilty of this, Die Walkure is 3rd on my list, if I changed it to the Ring Cycle it would go lower.

I did just search for Top Opera Lists online and I only saw Ring Cycle listed, not individuals.

[Cato]

10 to 1:

Richard Strauss: Elektra

Arnold Schoenberg: Erwartung

Arnold Schoenberg: Moses und Aron

Sergei Taneyev: The Oresteia

Ferruccio Busoni: Doctor Faust

Richard Wagner: Goetterdaemmerung

Richard Wagner: Tristan und Isolde

Paul Hindemith: Cardillac

Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov: The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya

Modest Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov

On another day, the order in the list could change, and possibly Die Walkuere, or Der Freischuetz, or Tsar Saltan, or Simplicius Simplicissimus could appear!  0:)

[North Star]

10.   Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9.   Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8.   Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7.   Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6.   Berlioz: Les Troyens
5.   Berg: Wozzeck
4.   Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3.   Britten: Death in Venice
2.   Rameau: Castor & Pollux   
1.   Szymanowski: Król Roger

[bwv 1080]

10 - Don Giovanni


nothing else, as it would wind up adding to someone else's vote & counting against Don Giovanni in the final tally

[Ken B]

Wait, I thought you said the leitmotif structure disproved my argument.  You didn't say how that was.

It's surely a powerful reason to see the thing as a united piece. I thought that was clear enough when I used the example of the Goldberg variations. Maybe I should have been clearer, so I'll try again. Why is the GV one thing in a way that the WTC is not? Because of the musical coherence, principally the shared thematic material, and the composers' intent. We can apply your arguments to the Goldbergs, and deduce we need to chunk it into 32 pieces on the favorite keyboard thread.  But that is surely wrong. That suggests your arguments, which are about things other than musical unity and composers's intent, don't really work.

ADDED. It occurs to me that The Musical Offering might be an even better example for my argument. It even varies the forces used. The pieces can be played alone, but it is clearly one thing, intended as one (massive) thing.

[Mahlerian]

It's surely a powerful reason to see the thing as a united piece. I thought that was clear enough when I used the example of the Goldberg variations.

I agree that the cycle is united.  That doesn't make it a single opera.  Do we want to include Stockhausen's Licht as a single opera as well?  It is also based on a few kinds of material that structure the whole 7-work cycle, and it has never once been performed in its entirety.

Maybe I should have been clearer, so I'll try again. Why is the GV one thing in a way that the WTC is not? Because of the musical coherence, principally the shared thematic material, and the composers' intent. We can apply your arguments to the Goldbergs, and deduce we need to chunk it into 32 pieces on the favorite keyboard thread.

No, we can't.  The Goldberg Variations are aesthetically unified in a way that the four operas of the Ring cycle are not, and this was my principal argument against considering them a single opera.

For that matter, why 32 pieces?  Why not include the canons, which are related to the material and were written alongside the variations?  If you say "because they don't fit in aesthetically with the rest," then this is at least a partial concession to the point I was trying to make.

But that is surely wrong. That suggests your arguments, which are about things other than musical unity and composers's intent, don't really work.

Musical unity and composer intent are exactly the source of my arguments.  I agree that Wagner meant for the operas to be performed in succession.  This doesn't mean in itself that he considered them a single opera.  He drafted each score and libretto separately as his conception changed, and the style of the music changed noticeably over time.

[Ken B]

Do we want to include Stockhausen's Licht as a single opera as well?

I'm willing to give that a 10 on the Least Favourite Operas thread!

[André]

10 Norma
9 Turandot
8 Walküre
7 Don Giovanni
6 Aida
5 Lohengrin
4 From the House of the Dead
3 Duke Bluebeard's Castle
2 Pique Dame
1 Il Trovatore

[amw]

+10 Le nozze di Figaro
+9 Luci mie traditrici (Salvatore Sciarrino.... no one else will vote for this so I'm giving it lots of points)
+8 Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
+7 Così fan tutte
+6 Don Giovanni
+5 Boris Godunov (original version preferably)
+4 Mittwoch aus Licht
+3 Die Soldaten
+2 Das Rheingold
+1 Le grand macabre

I don't listen to opera a lot.

Bonus list, musical edition:

+10 Fiddler on the Roof
+9 West Side Story
+8 My Fair Lady
+7 1776
+6 A Chorus Line
+5 Guys & Dolls
+4 Avenue Q
+3 Rent
+2 The Producers
+1 Les Miz

[GioCar]

+10 Le nozze di Figaro
+9 Luci miei traditrici (Salvatore Sciarrino.... no one else will vote for this so I'm giving it lots of points)
+8 Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
+7 Così fan tutte
+6 Don Giovanni
+5 Boris Godunov (original version preferably)
+4 Mittwoch aus Licht
+3 Die Soldaten
+2 Das Rheingold
+1 Le grand macabre

I don't listen to opera a lot.

Bonus list, musical edition:

+10 Fiddler on the Roof
+9 West Side Story
+8 My Fair Lady
+7 1776
+6 A Chorus Line
+5 Guys & Dolls
+4 Avenue Q
+3 Rent
+2 The Producers
+1 Les Miz

Very happy you've done so, I also had thought to include 'Luci mie traditrici' (not miei) in my list. If not in my first ten, surely in my first fifteen.
I had thought adding one opera from the Licht cycle as well, maybe not Mittwoch but Samstag,

[amw]

Thanks, I can't spell lol

It was between Mittwoch and Donnerstag for me. I picked Mittwoch because it has helicopters.

[Mirror Image]

10.   Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9.   Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8.   Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7.   Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6.   Berlioz: Les Troyens
5.   Berg: Wozzeck
4.   Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3.   Britten: Death in Venice
2.   Rameau: Castor & Pollux   
1.   Szymanowski: Król Roger

If Janáček wasn't on your list, I think I'd seriously start to question even my own choices. A wonderful thing that good taste has prevailed!