GMG's Greatest Opera Poll of 2017

[some guy]

Operas that did not get any mention in any top ten list (far as I recall--I'm not going back to check, either), unranked, as is mine wont:

Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini
Mussorgsky: Khovanschina
Janáček: Osud
Janáček: Katja Kabanova
Janáček: From the House of the Dead
Prokofiev: Semyon Kotko
Prokofiev: Betrothal in a Monastery
Shields, Shaman
Kutavičius: Lokys
Means, Apropos of Not That

No numbers because no one here is likely interested in any of these, though they're all interesting.

I was rather taken aback, I must say, by the high level of participation by people who self-describe as not being all that interested in opera.

But I'm constantly being taken aback here, aren't I?

[North Star]

Operas that did not get any mention in any top ten list (far as I recall--I'm not going back to check, either), unranked, as is mine wont:

Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini
Mussorgsky: Khovanschina
Janáček: Osud
Janáček: Katja Kabanova
Janáček: From the House of the Dead
Prokofiev: Semyon Kotko
Prokofiev: Betrothal in a Monastery
Shields, Shaman
Kutavičius: Lokys
Means, Apropos of Not That

No numbers because no one here is likely interested in any of these, though they're all interesting.

I was rather taken aback, I must say, by the high level of participation by people who self-describe as not being all that interested in opera.

But I'm constantly being taken aback here, aren't I?

10.   Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9.   Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8.   Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7.   Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6.   Berlioz: Les Troyens
5.   Berg: Wozzeck
4.   Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3.   Britten: Death in Venice
2.   Rameau: Castor & Pollux   
1.   Szymanowski: Król Roger

Could well have included Khovanschina too.

[ritter]

I'm afraid I don't quite get the difference. Is not Opera a subgenre of Classical Music? The list of composers who wrote both operas and "absolute music" is a very long one.

Yes, but "opera fans" may consider other aspects than the pure muiscal quality of the works they admire. For instance, a pice like Cavalleria Rusticana is a fun show and is greatly admired by many (and considered a "great" opera), but nobody could honestly say that Mascagni was a "great" composer....

Another example: Verdi's IMHO greatest acheivements made it to our list, but I am convinced that in an opera forum, the romantic trilogy and Aïda (or even Simon Boccanegra) would have had a much better showing than either Falstaff (for sure) or Otello (possibly).

[Florestan]

Yes, but "opera fans" may consider other aspects than the pure muiscal quality of the works they admire. For instance, a pice like Cavalleria Rusticana is a fun show and is greatly admired by many (and considered a "great" opera), but nobody could honestly say that Mascagni was a "great" composer....

Another example: Verdi's IMHO greatest acheivements made it to our list, but I am convinced that in an opera forum, the romantic trilogy and Aïda (or even Simon Boccanegra) would have had a much better showing than either Falstaff (for sure) or Otello (possibly).

There is a much simpler explanation. The 10 years of being a GMG member have taught me one thing: for 90% of our dear colleagues, if it's not long, loud and about suffering, it's not great music, be it opera, symphony, concerto or piano sonata. What I like to call The Doom&Gloom Brigade.  But in the case of opera, not all their forces combined could dethrone Mozart from his deserved place of honor. 

[André]

"Top ten" will likely assemble a good measure of stalwarts, and a good measure of unknown stuff. The latter may be mentioned for épater le bourgeois or because it made a genuine strong artistic impression on the listener. Of course, at GMG it's the latter reason that prevails, because we are all serious and honest people  .  I could have mentioned Il Prigionero, Greek, Dead Man Walking or Koanga, but I'd be lying if I pretended that they're in my top 10. They could probably be in my top 25, though.

[Cato]

Well............GMG isn't a huge forum and the amount of people voting in this poll gives a lot of voting power to very few voters I guess

No Elektra, no Moses und Aron, no Doctor Faust, nothing by Rimsky-Korsakov ...oh well!     0:)

[mc ukrneal]

"Top ten" will likely assemble a good measure of stalwarts, and a good measure of unknown stuff. The latter may be mentioned for épater le bourgeois or because it made a genuine strong artistic impression on the listener. Of course, at GMG it's the latter reason that prevails, because we are all serious and honest people  .  I could have mentioned Il Prigionero, Greek, Dead Man Walking or Koanga, but I'd be lying if I pretended that they're in my top 10. They could probably be in my top 25, though.

But that is not what this list is about. This list is supposed to be the greatest 10 operas ever written. Shock value or even strong impression are rather irrelevant. But then, that is part of the problem - everyone had their own interpretation of what that means and their own criteria for choosing. May I remind you that this is not a 'favorites' list, though some people seem to have voted this way (or for the shock value, as you mentioned), here and in the other 'greatest' lists.

[Jo498]

Call me an old fart but for me a list of Top 25 Greatest Operas with no Handel, Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti is deeply flawed. I mean, seriously guys, no Baroque (other than... Purcell?) and no Belcanto at all? Will the Doom&Gloom Brigade ever be defeated? 

There is a simpler explanation. All the composers you mentioned wrote too many operas so a poll will often not settle on any of them. Even with Verdi it is often the case that the votes will be distributed among too many. It seems to have worked for Mozart and Wagner because for Mozart it is only among about 5-6 favs and similarly with Wagner although he wrote twice that number.

And while it is of course true that opera is a subgenre of classical music, this particular forum is clearly dominated by non-operatic music. So for most people here opera does not seem to be the main focus. There are a bunch of operas/composers that tend to be the favs of people who prefer instrumental music: e.g. Wagner, Janacek, Berg. (Except for Wagner they are not big favs with "typical" opera lovers.)

Likewise, there are quite a few people out there who greatly prefer opera to instrumental music. And many of them focus on singers and singing and thus have a very different perspective.

So I think Ritter has a fair point here.

[mc ukrneal]

There is a simpler explanation. All the composers you mentioned wrote too many operas so a poll will often not settle on any of them. Even with Verdi it is often the case that the votes will be distributed among too many. It seems to have worked for Mozart and Wagner because for Mozart it is only among about 5-6 favs and similarly with Wagner although he wrote twice that number.

And while it is of course true that opera is a subgenre of classical music, this particular forum is clearly dominated by non-operatic music. So for most people here opera does not seem to be the main focus. There are a bunch of operas/composers that tend to be the favs of people who prefer instrumental music: e.g. Wagner, Janacek, Berg. (Except for Wagner they are not big favs with "typical" opera lovers.)

Likewise, there are quite a few people out there who greatly prefer opera to instrumental music. And many of them focus on singers and singing and thus have a very different perspective.

So I think Ritter has a fair point here.

But so does Florestan, which is based on some of the negative comments (posted over the years) on light music, operetta, and other less dark music.

[André]

But that is not what this list is about. This list is supposed to be the greatest 10 operas ever written. Shock value or even strong impression are rather irrelevant. But then, that is part of the problem - everyone had their own interpretation of what that means and their own criteria for choosing. May I remind you that this is not a 'favorites' list, though some people seem to have voted this way (or for the shock value, as you mentioned), here and in the other 'greatest' lists.

Very well. But 'top 10' or 'greatest' is in the mind of the beholder. We're not talking about the tallest buildings, longest rivers or richest billionnaires here. There are no objective criteria to measure that sort of thing. Some people are passionate about baroque opera for example - well, record companies and singers certainly seem to be - whereas I couldn't bother less about that specific sub-genre. Late Classic or Early Romantic works are on a roll too (vide the success of the Pallazzetto Bru Zane collections issued these last few years). It's as if anything but the old ABC(*) of operagoing will attract notice, and in 'standard' repertoire, only revamped, recontextualized and thoroughly freudianized productions are deemed worthy of attention. My own list is very conventional and unadventurous (although I skipped Carmen because I have heard it 100 times too many, I'm afraid).

*(ABC being the old Met coin for Aida/Bohème/Carmen).

[mc ukrneal]

Very well. But 'top 10' or 'greatest' is in the mind of the beholder. We're not talking about the tallest buildings, longest rivers or richest billionnaires here. There are no objective criteria to measure that sort of thing. Some people are passionate about baroque opera for example - well, record companies and singers certainly seem to be - whereas I couldn't bother less about that specific sub-genre. Late Classic or Early Romantic works are on a roll too (vide the success of the Pallazzetto Bru Zane collections issued these last few years). It's as if anything but the old ABC(*) of operagoing will attract notice, and in 'standard' repertoire, only revamped, recontextualized and thoroughly freudianized productions are deemed worthy of attention. My own list is very conventional and unadventurous (although I skipped Carmen because I have heard it 100 times too many, I'm afraid).

*(ABC being the old Met coin for Aida/Bohème/Carmen).

Here we'll have to disagree. I think there do exist objective criteria. We may not agree on them (or disagree on their importance/weight), but there are criteria. For example, influence of a certain work/composer/etc. on current and/or future generations.  And in the case of opera, perhaos the integration of the libretto with the music (or even the quality of the libretto itself). I'm sure there are many to consider.

I also think there is an enormous difference between 'greatest' and nearly every other indicator/qualifier, whether it be favorite/top 10/etc. Greatest is the attempt to objectively qualify/evaluate them, while all the others are simply preferences. It is why I so strenuously object to the title of this (and related) threads, as it misleads the reader entirely.

[Spineur]

If I were you, I would not worry too much.  This forum loves polls although there are very few active voters.  The results only reflect who we are as a smallish internet community, which isnt without interest.

This doesnt prevent any of us to listen to whatever we like and go to the opera performance we can catch.

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks for everyone that visited, and participated! These polls always bring great discussions and debates.

Until next time!

[mc ukrneal]

If I were you, I would not worry too much.  This forum loves polls although there are very few active voters.  The results only reflect who we are as a smallish internet community, which isnt without interest.

This doesnt prevent any of us to listen to whatever we like and go to the opera performance we can catch.

A wise response. Thanks.

[Florestan]

loud, attention-grabbing, forceful

Exactly my point. That's precisely what The Doom&Gloom Brigade is looking for in music --- and if they don't encounter it, then the music it's not worth their time.