Furtwangler's Mighty Monumental Mountain of Music

[snyprrr]

...whose 'alla breve' alone lasts 50 minutes!!

[Maestro267]

Yes, he did compose some lengthy works, but then there are plenty of conductors of the period who wrote substantial compositions. Of these, only Mahler has crossed over to the point where he is better known in modern times as a composer. But other conductor/composers include Weingartner, von Hausegger (whose Natursymphonie is a blast), and Bruno Walter.

Back to Furtwangler though; from what I've heard of his music, it seems to be more in the academic, perhaps Brucknerian vein. But yes, three substantial symphonies (the shortest of which is still a little over an hour in length), and the Symphonic Piano Concerto in B minor, one of the longest piano concertos in the repertoire. Not quite Busoni length, but still approximately 60 minutes, including a half-hour long first movement.

[springrite]

I love Furtwangler's music!!! I also have some chamber music (violin sonata, for instance). Every piece I have heard so far have been works that I like tremendously.

Academic? No, I think it is more than that!

[vandermolen]

I like Symphony 2 of which I have three recordings as far as I'm aware.

[snyprrr]

I like Symphony 2 of which I have three recordings as far as I'm aware.

Yes, there was a reason!


Schnabel also comes to mind...

[pjme]

Mighty monumental Mountains of Music! This made me think of a 2013 GMG contribution by Fahl:

Let me introduce a section for Jean Louis Nicodé (1853-1919):

Due to the fact that long time most of his works were never recorded before it was definitly hard to get an impression of this hidden musical genius, which was obviously by some of his contemporaries regareded with higher apreciation than Richard Strauss for instance and also outside germany regarded as one of important representants of "modern" german music in the very first years of the 20th century.

I found interest in Nicodé when I first studied his Pianosonata and recorded later some of his as serious as intelligent and charming

Pianoworks,

Encouraged by the positive experience with his pianomusic I recently managed to produce the first available recordings of his two main orchestral scores:

"The Sea" (1888) for Orchestra, Organ, mens choir, and Soloists already with 50 minutes a monumental work prefiguring some aspects of Mahlers early symphonies

and

"Gloria!" (1902-03) for Orchestra and "Schlusschor" which is in fact the largest an imho perhaps even the greatest romantic symphony ever written.
(for those who prefer to get a littel overview there is also a 10 minuts Gloria-Youtube-Trailer)

No romantic Symphony neither from Mahler nor from Havergal Brian not even Schönbergs Gurrelieder have ever surpassed or at least reached the dimension of this very first and greatest example of late romantic monumentalism. And the most important: Nicodé definitly has had the skills and the architectural overview, to compose even with appr. 250 000 notes which appr. 200 Musicians should play in more than two hours still inspired, touching and powerful music.

The only reason for the ignorance of his masterworks seem to me the fact, that his oustanding and important masterworks definitly demands so much not only really brilliant but persevering brilliant musicians to realise what he has composed.
I hope my attempts could help to shed more light on his in my ears at least overwhelming compositions.

best
fahl5

From Don O'Connor text : http://vonhausegger.com/files/Three%20by%20Nicode.pdf

Gloria! has the following movements:

I. Vorverkündung (Annunciation)------------------------ 40
Von Werdelust und Tausend Zielen (Of the Joy
of Becoming and a Thousand Goals) ------------- 42
II. Durchs Feuer; Durch die Schmiede (Through Fire
and Forge) -------------------------------------------- 48
III. Ein Sonnentag des Glücks (A Sunday of Fortune)-- 52
IV. Die Stillste Stunde (The Stillest Hour) ---------------- 59
V. Um das Höchste (To Attain the Highest) ------------ 64
VI. Der Neue Morgen (The New Tomorrow) ------------ 76

Gloria! Ein Sturm und Sonnenlied (Gloria! A Storm and Sun Song)
Symphony in One Movement.
The Gloria Symphony is why I wrote this. Much as Nicodé's other works attracted
me, this one utterly intrigued me for years, after I first saw the score pages reproduced in
Schäfer's monograph. Aside from not at first knowing exactly what the "12 Trillerpfeifen"
were, it simply looked unlike any score I knew from those days. At ca. 2 ½ hours' length,
Gloria may be the longest one-movement work written. It's certainly one of the most
detailed and specific program symphonies. The premier in Frankfurt, on May 30th, 1904,
was the sensation of the 40th Annual Composer's Festival.
Nicodé worked on Gloria! for well over 4 years. This spanned not only the
composition, but also the orchestration and, especially, proofreading the vast (336 pp.)
score and parts. (Engraved at his own expense, the score is one of the most beautiful
printing jobs I've ever seen. I can't even imagine his costs.) Though not specifically noted
in the score, he dedicated it to his wife. Much of the music reflects Nicodé's struggle
against what he regarded as Dresden's Philistinism. That it wasn't played in Dresden till
1915 may reflect this.
Although played in one movement at its premier, Nicodé provided alternate
concert endings for each section. Much as I admire the bold concept of so huge an
unbroken work – a length exceeding even Nicholas Maw's Odyssey – no doubt in live
performance, audience and players' comfort would favor some breaks. Realistically, it
would also make some time for the various off-stage instrumentalists to get to and from
their posts.
You can do the work in three sections, with intermissions after both Parts III and
V or in two sections, with the intermission after Part III. If it's done as separate
movements, the concert endings tend to be routine. On a recording, it could be done in

one vast movement, to its artistic gain, because the transitions between the movements
are far more original and interesting.
Gloria is hard to explain in the context of Nicodé's work. Even granting that this
was the time of the big machines, e. g., Mahler's 2nd or 3rd Symphonies or Strauß' Domestic
Symphony, Gloria is a huge stride in ambition and scope. At the relatively early age of 46
(from my viewpoint of 69), Nicodé largely withdrew from public life for over 4 years
to write an Apologia Pro Vita Sua. How he hit on the daring concept of a 150-minute
symphony is a mystery. Maybe like Topsy or Brian's Gothic Symphony, it just growed. In his
later works, e. g. Nach Sonnenuntergang, he scales back to more modest forces and length.
Otto Taubmann, in his article about Nicodé, describes the general argument: "a
fighter for his ideals sees himself wounded by the world of brutal reality and finds his
truest happiness and peace on the mountain heights, in the presence of a never-deceitful
nature." Thus, Gloria is to Nicodé what Ein Heldenleben is to Strauss. We can summarize
the six movements' narrative thus:
I. The artist awakening to his strength
II. His tempering through fire and forge
III. A creative day in his life; his awakening to nature
IV. His self-doubts and resolution to strive
V. The battle for his ideals; defeat
VI. A new tomorrow; inner peace on the mountain
Gloria: Orchestral/Choral Forces and Logistics
To stage this piece – I use the word consciously – takes numbers to gladden the ghost of
Berlioz: an orchestra of 114 to 120 players plus 270 singers.
3 piccolos
3 flutes, all with a low B foot; 2 also double piccolo (in addition to the 3 above)
3 oboes; 1 doubling English horn
3 clarinets; 1 doubling Eb; third clarinet doubling bass clarinet in A
2 bassoons
contrabassoon
12 horns
6 trumpets
3 trombones
tuba
4 tympani, needing as many as 3 players
2 bass drums
3 snare drums
3 pairs of crash cymbals
suspended cymbal
2 tambourines
6 pairs of double castanets

triangle
glockenspiel
3 xylophones; in one passage, 3 players play rolls on them with snare drum sticks
8 deep bells (not chimes)
If the percussionists don't mind doubling on various instruments and union rules allow,
you can get by with 7. (We Hittites enjoy doubling; it beats counting rests.) If you follow
Nicodé's directions literally, you'll need 13; some parts he directs to be played by flutists
when they have rests.
2 harps
organ
64 strings: a la the Bayreuth quota 16/16/12/12/8
12 Trillerpfeifen – tuned police or referee whistles; players otherwise resting play these.
Nicodé divides them into 3 groups. Group I: horns 3-6, Group II: trombones and tuba,
Group III: 4 bassists each tuned so:
270 choristers (SATB) ~80/60/50/80, including an offstage contingent of 16/12/12/16
Mezzo or boy soprano soloist.

I would go to a performance...
P.

[kyjo]

  I'd sure love to hear that!!

[SymphonicAddict]

Mighty monumental Mountains of Music! This made me think of a 2013 GMG contribution by Fahl:

Let me introduce a section for Jean Louis Nicodé (1853-1919):

Due to the fact that long time most of his works were never recorded before it was definitly hard to get an impression of this hidden musical genius, which was obviously by some of his contemporaries regareded with higher apreciation than Richard Strauss for instance and also outside germany regarded as one of important representants of "modern" german music in the very first years of the 20th century.

I found interest in Nicodé when I first studied his Pianosonata and recorded later some of his as serious as intelligent and charming

Pianoworks,

Encouraged by the positive experience with his pianomusic I recently managed to produce the first available recordings of his two main orchestral scores:

"The Sea" (1888) for Orchestra, Organ, mens choir, and Soloists already with 50 minutes a monumental work prefiguring some aspects of Mahlers early symphonies

and

"Gloria!" (1902-03) for Orchestra and "Schlusschor" which is in fact the largest an imho perhaps even the greatest romantic symphony ever written.
(for those who prefer to get a littel overview there is also a 10 minuts Gloria-Youtube-Trailer)

No romantic Symphony neither from Mahler nor from Havergal Brian not even Schönbergs Gurrelieder have ever surpassed or at least reached the dimension of this very first and greatest example of late romantic monumentalism. And the most important: Nicodé definitly has had the skills and the architectural overview, to compose even with appr. 250 000 notes which appr. 200 Musicians should play in more than two hours still inspired, touching and powerful music.

The only reason for the ignorance of his masterworks seem to me the fact, that his oustanding and important masterworks definitly demands so much not only really brilliant but persevering brilliant musicians to realise what he has composed.
I hope my attempts could help to shed more light on his in my ears at least overwhelming compositions.

best
fahl5

From Don O'Connor text : http://vonhausegger.com/files/Three%20by%20Nicode.pdf

Gloria! has the following movements:

I. Vorverkündung (Annunciation)------------------------ 40
Von Werdelust und Tausend Zielen (Of the Joy
of Becoming and a Thousand Goals) ------------- 42
II. Durchs Feuer; Durch die Schmiede (Through Fire
and Forge) -------------------------------------------- 48
III. Ein Sonnentag des Glücks (A Sunday of Fortune)-- 52
IV. Die Stillste Stunde (The Stillest Hour) ---------------- 59
V. Um das Höchste (To Attain the Highest) ------------ 64
VI. Der Neue Morgen (The New Tomorrow) ------------ 76

Gloria! Ein Sturm und Sonnenlied (Gloria! A Storm and Sun Song)
Symphony in One Movement.
The Gloria Symphony is why I wrote this. Much as Nicodé's other works attracted
me, this one utterly intrigued me for years, after I first saw the score pages reproduced in
Schäfer's monograph. Aside from not at first knowing exactly what the "12 Trillerpfeifen"
were, it simply looked unlike any score I knew from those days. At ca. 2 ½ hours' length,
Gloria may be the longest one-movement work written. It's certainly one of the most
detailed and specific program symphonies. The premier in Frankfurt, on May 30th, 1904,
was the sensation of the 40th Annual Composer's Festival.
Nicodé worked on Gloria! for well over 4 years. This spanned not only the
composition, but also the orchestration and, especially, proofreading the vast (336 pp.)
score and parts. (Engraved at his own expense, the score is one of the most beautiful
printing jobs I've ever seen. I can't even imagine his costs.) Though not specifically noted
in the score, he dedicated it to his wife. Much of the music reflects Nicodé's struggle
against what he regarded as Dresden's Philistinism. That it wasn't played in Dresden till
1915 may reflect this.
Although played in one movement at its premier, Nicodé provided alternate
concert endings for each section. Much as I admire the bold concept of so huge an
unbroken work – a length exceeding even Nicholas Maw's Odyssey – no doubt in live
performance, audience and players' comfort would favor some breaks. Realistically, it
would also make some time for the various off-stage instrumentalists to get to and from
their posts.
You can do the work in three sections, with intermissions after both Parts III and
V or in two sections, with the intermission after Part III. If it's done as separate
movements, the concert endings tend to be routine. On a recording, it could be done in

one vast movement, to its artistic gain, because the transitions between the movements
are far more original and interesting.
Gloria is hard to explain in the context of Nicodé's work. Even granting that this
was the time of the big machines, e. g., Mahler's 2nd or 3rd Symphonies or Strauß' Domestic
Symphony, Gloria is a huge stride in ambition and scope. At the relatively early age of 46
(from my viewpoint of 69), Nicodé largely withdrew from public life for over 4 years
to write an Apologia Pro Vita Sua. How he hit on the daring concept of a 150-minute
symphony is a mystery. Maybe like Topsy or Brian's Gothic Symphony, it just growed. In his
later works, e. g. Nach Sonnenuntergang, he scales back to more modest forces and length.
Otto Taubmann, in his article about Nicodé, describes the general argument: "a
fighter for his ideals sees himself wounded by the world of brutal reality and finds his
truest happiness and peace on the mountain heights, in the presence of a never-deceitful
nature." Thus, Gloria is to Nicodé what Ein Heldenleben is to Strauss. We can summarize
the six movements' narrative thus:
I. The artist awakening to his strength
II. His tempering through fire and forge
III. A creative day in his life; his awakening to nature
IV. His self-doubts and resolution to strive
V. The battle for his ideals; defeat
VI. A new tomorrow; inner peace on the mountain
Gloria: Orchestral/Choral Forces and Logistics
To stage this piece – I use the word consciously – takes numbers to gladden the ghost of
Berlioz: an orchestra of 114 to 120 players plus 270 singers.
3 piccolos
3 flutes, all with a low B foot; 2 also double piccolo (in addition to the 3 above)
3 oboes; 1 doubling English horn
3 clarinets; 1 doubling Eb; third clarinet doubling bass clarinet in A
2 bassoons
contrabassoon
12 horns
6 trumpets
3 trombones
tuba
4 tympani, needing as many as 3 players
2 bass drums
3 snare drums
3 pairs of crash cymbals
suspended cymbal
2 tambourines
6 pairs of double castanets

triangle
glockenspiel
3 xylophones; in one passage, 3 players play rolls on them with snare drum sticks
8 deep bells (not chimes)
If the percussionists don't mind doubling on various instruments and union rules allow,
you can get by with 7. (We Hittites enjoy doubling; it beats counting rests.) If you follow
Nicodé's directions literally, you'll need 13; some parts he directs to be played by flutists
when they have rests.
2 harps
organ
64 strings: a la the Bayreuth quota 16/16/12/12/8
12 Trillerpfeifen – tuned police or referee whistles; players otherwise resting play these.
Nicodé divides them into 3 groups. Group I: horns 3-6, Group II: trombones and tuba,
Group III: 4 bassists each tuned so:
270 choristers (SATB) ~80/60/50/80, including an offstage contingent of 16/12/12/16
Mezzo or boy soprano soloist.

I would go to a performance...
P.

Wow!! Thanks for sharing this incredible information. A true epos in all its glory it has to be. And is it in one movement? Even more outrageous.

[relm1]

Mighty monumental Mountains of Music! This made me think of a 2013 GMG contribution by Fahl:

Let me introduce a section for Jean Louis Nicodé (1853-1919):

Due to the fact that long time most of his works were never recorded before it was definitly hard to get an impression of this hidden musical genius, which was obviously by some of his contemporaries regareded with higher apreciation than Richard Strauss for instance and also outside germany regarded as one of important representants of "modern" german music in the very first years of the 20th century.

I found interest in Nicodé when I first studied his Pianosonata and recorded later some of his as serious as intelligent and charming

Pianoworks,

Encouraged by the positive experience with his pianomusic I recently managed to produce the first available recordings of his two main orchestral scores:

"The Sea" (1888) for Orchestra, Organ, mens choir, and Soloists already with 50 minutes a monumental work prefiguring some aspects of Mahlers early symphonies

and

"Gloria!" (1902-03) for Orchestra and "Schlusschor" which is in fact the largest an imho perhaps even the greatest romantic symphony ever written.
(for those who prefer to get a littel overview there is also a 10 minuts Gloria-Youtube-Trailer)

No romantic Symphony neither from Mahler nor from Havergal Brian not even Schönbergs Gurrelieder have ever surpassed or at least reached the dimension of this very first and greatest example of late romantic monumentalism. And the most important: Nicodé definitly has had the skills and the architectural overview, to compose even with appr. 250 000 notes which appr. 200 Musicians should play in more than two hours still inspired, touching and powerful music.

The only reason for the ignorance of his masterworks seem to me the fact, that his oustanding and important masterworks definitly demands so much not only really brilliant but persevering brilliant musicians to realise what he has composed.
I hope my attempts could help to shed more light on his in my ears at least overwhelming compositions.

best
fahl5

From Don O'Connor text : http://vonhausegger.com/files/Three%20by%20Nicode.pdf

Gloria! has the following movements:

I. Vorverkündung (Annunciation)------------------------ 40
Von Werdelust und Tausend Zielen (Of the Joy
of Becoming and a Thousand Goals) ------------- 42
II. Durchs Feuer; Durch die Schmiede (Through Fire
and Forge) -------------------------------------------- 48
III. Ein Sonnentag des Glücks (A Sunday of Fortune)-- 52
IV. Die Stillste Stunde (The Stillest Hour) ---------------- 59
V. Um das Höchste (To Attain the Highest) ------------ 64
VI. Der Neue Morgen (The New Tomorrow) ------------ 76

Gloria! Ein Sturm und Sonnenlied (Gloria! A Storm and Sun Song)
Symphony in One Movement.
The Gloria Symphony is why I wrote this. Much as Nicodé's other works attracted
me, this one utterly intrigued me for years, after I first saw the score pages reproduced in
Schäfer's monograph. Aside from not at first knowing exactly what the "12 Trillerpfeifen"
were, it simply looked unlike any score I knew from those days. At ca. 2 ½ hours' length,
Gloria may be the longest one-movement work written. It's certainly one of the most
detailed and specific program symphonies. The premier in Frankfurt, on May 30th, 1904,
was the sensation of the 40th Annual Composer's Festival.
Nicodé worked on Gloria! for well over 4 years. This spanned not only the
composition, but also the orchestration and, especially, proofreading the vast (336 pp.)
score and parts. (Engraved at his own expense, the score is one of the most beautiful
printing jobs I've ever seen. I can't even imagine his costs.) Though not specifically noted
in the score, he dedicated it to his wife. Much of the music reflects Nicodé's struggle
against what he regarded as Dresden's Philistinism. That it wasn't played in Dresden till
1915 may reflect this.
Although played in one movement at its premier, Nicodé provided alternate
concert endings for each section. Much as I admire the bold concept of so huge an
unbroken work – a length exceeding even Nicholas Maw's Odyssey – no doubt in live
performance, audience and players' comfort would favor some breaks. Realistically, it
would also make some time for the various off-stage instrumentalists to get to and from
their posts.
You can do the work in three sections, with intermissions after both Parts III and
V or in two sections, with the intermission after Part III. If it's done as separate
movements, the concert endings tend to be routine. On a recording, it could be done in

one vast movement, to its artistic gain, because the transitions between the movements
are far more original and interesting.
Gloria is hard to explain in the context of Nicodé's work. Even granting that this
was the time of the big machines, e. g., Mahler's 2nd or 3rd Symphonies or Strauß' Domestic
Symphony, Gloria is a huge stride in ambition and scope. At the relatively early age of 46
(from my viewpoint of 69), Nicodé largely withdrew from public life for over 4 years
to write an Apologia Pro Vita Sua. How he hit on the daring concept of a 150-minute
symphony is a mystery. Maybe like Topsy or Brian's Gothic Symphony, it just growed. In his
later works, e. g. Nach Sonnenuntergang, he scales back to more modest forces and length.
Otto Taubmann, in his article about Nicodé, describes the general argument: "a
fighter for his ideals sees himself wounded by the world of brutal reality and finds his
truest happiness and peace on the mountain heights, in the presence of a never-deceitful
nature." Thus, Gloria is to Nicodé what Ein Heldenleben is to Strauss. We can summarize
the six movements' narrative thus:
I. The artist awakening to his strength
II. His tempering through fire and forge
III. A creative day in his life; his awakening to nature
IV. His self-doubts and resolution to strive
V. The battle for his ideals; defeat
VI. A new tomorrow; inner peace on the mountain
Gloria: Orchestral/Choral Forces and Logistics
To stage this piece – I use the word consciously – takes numbers to gladden the ghost of
Berlioz: an orchestra of 114 to 120 players plus 270 singers.
3 piccolos
3 flutes, all with a low B foot; 2 also double piccolo (in addition to the 3 above)
3 oboes; 1 doubling English horn
3 clarinets; 1 doubling Eb; third clarinet doubling bass clarinet in A
2 bassoons
contrabassoon
12 horns
6 trumpets
3 trombones
tuba
4 tympani, needing as many as 3 players
2 bass drums
3 snare drums
3 pairs of crash cymbals
suspended cymbal
2 tambourines
6 pairs of double castanets

triangle
glockenspiel
3 xylophones; in one passage, 3 players play rolls on them with snare drum sticks
8 deep bells (not chimes)
If the percussionists don't mind doubling on various instruments and union rules allow,
you can get by with 7. (We Hittites enjoy doubling; it beats counting rests.) If you follow
Nicodé's directions literally, you'll need 13; some parts he directs to be played by flutists
when they have rests.
2 harps
organ
64 strings: a la the Bayreuth quota 16/16/12/12/8
12 Trillerpfeifen – tuned police or referee whistles; players otherwise resting play these.
Nicodé divides them into 3 groups. Group I: horns 3-6, Group II: trombones and tuba,
Group III: 4 bassists each tuned so:
270 choristers (SATB) ~80/60/50/80, including an offstage contingent of 16/12/12/16
Mezzo or boy soprano soloist.

I would go to a performance...
P.

Why is this in the Furtwangler thread?  Don't get me wrong, I am appreciative of learning of this previously unknown to me composer but can't see the connection to this thread.  I did find a link that seems to have computer renderings of Gloria and The Sea here: http://klassik-resampled.de/index.php/en/komponisten-abc/n/nicode-jean-louis

[kyjo]

Back to Furtwangler, I have his darkly Brucknerian 3rd Symphony on Marco Polo and remember liking it quite a bit, despite it being rather long-winded. I must investigate the CSO/Barenboim recording of the 2nd Symphony.

[SymphonicAddict]

Why is this in the Furtwangler thread?  Don't get me wrong, I am appreciative of learning of this previously unknown to me composer but can't see the connection to this thread.  I did find a link that seems to have computer renderings of Gloria and The Sea here: http://klassik-resampled.de/index.php/en/komponisten-abc/n/nicode-jean-louis

Because of the comparison between 'mighty monumental mountains of music' by Furtwängler and Nicodé, which shows that Nicodé was even more monumental and ambitious than Furtwängler. BTW, I haven't listened to the Furtwängler's yet.

[relm1]

Because of the comparison between 'mighty monumental mountains of music' by Furtwängler and Nicodé, which shows that Nicodé was even more monumental and ambitious than Furtwängler. BTW, I haven't listened to the Furtwängler's yet.

Yeah, that is a lame explanation.  You know that Nicodé isn't referenced in this thread so has nothing to do with "Mighty Monumental Mountain of Music".   It's a very confusing thread. 

[SymphonicAddict]

Yeah, that is a lame explanation.  You know that Nicodé isn't referenced in this thread so has nothing to do with "Mighty Monumental Mountain of Music".   It's a very confusing thread.

Well, I don't see anything bad about illustrating and contrasting information of other composers in this thread. There are plenty of threads with similar conditions.

[snyprrr]

There's already a thread, but why bother...

I thought I checked?,... huh?,...

I don't "normally" hijack Threads... Roussel comes to mind, but, I thought I checked here... oops!