Prokofiev Symphonies

Started by Malx, January 01, 2018, 07:21:25 AM

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Daverz

#40
This is making me nostalgic.  One of my most cherished LPs back in the day:



Note that this is with the Philharmonia, not Boston.  A great Ravel Left Hand Concerto as well.  These were orignally on Capitol records.  There was also a great Kije and Hary Janos record with the Philharmonia:



Leinsdorf uses the sung parts in the Kije both here and on his RCA recording.

EMI then released this CD



Unfortunately, 80 minute CDs weren't a thing back then, so they left off one movement of the Hary Janos.  >:(

To get back on topic, I can highly recommend this recent digital-only issue:



Fantastic sonics and playing in Cleveland.  They've also recorded Symphonies Nos. 2 and 3.  Perhaps the rest will follow.

relm1

Quote from: Karl Henning on April 16, 2023, 08:32:26 AMLeinsdorf is a Boston Legend!

He introduced me to Mahler I think (old memories)

relm1

#42
Tonight, I listened to Walter Weller's cycle continuing with No. 5 and 6.  These are flawless.  I think it mustn't be forgotten that despite Prokofiev's harsh harmonies (which I happen to love), he is in his heart, a lyricist.  Weller really gets that.  The phrasing and lyrical structure is never lost nor is the harsh harmonies that are so characteristic of this composer.  No. 5 is so damn good.  Also great was the tam-tam.  I'll geek out for a moment.  English versus French versus Russians think of gong and tam-tam differently.  For example, Elgar and Holst state a gong is required but it is performed by a tam-tam.  I asked a major orchestra's percussionist about this, and they explained that gongs are sort of an umbrella category that can include a gong up through a larger tam-tam.  Generally, the gong is smaller and higher pitched.  But what about a small tam-tam?  French might use a smaller/higher sounding tone than the Russians.  Like a Shostakovich tam-tam is darker than a Ravel Tam-tam.  Scriabin might use a huge, longer toned tam-tam.  Generally, a Prokofiev/Shostakovich tam-tam is 32" to 38".  I love the tam-tam the LSO is using in Walter Weller's, it's very Russian and likely between 32" to 38".  It has that quality.  This is part of why I adore this cycle (so far as I've reached No. 6) it is lyrical, dramatic, epic, and has the gravitas of the music.  It's a marvelous cycle!  My favorite so far...but I'll explore others next.  To my ears, Walter Weller is the equal to Beethoven's Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra / Carlos Kleiber cycle.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: relm1 on April 16, 2023, 04:36:04 PMTonight, I listened to Walter Weller's cycle continuing with No. 5 and 6.  These are flawless.  I think it mustn't be forgotten that despite Prokofiev's harsh harmonies (which I happen to love), he is in his heart, a lyricist.  Weller really gets that.  The phrasing and lyrical structure is never lost nor is the harsh harmonies that are so characteristic of this composer.  No. 5 is so damn good.  Also great was the tam-tam.  I'll geek out for a moment.  English versus French versus Russians think of gong and tam-tam differently.  For example, Elgar and Holst state a gong is required but it is performed by a tam-tam.  I asked a major orchestra's percussionist about this, and they explained that gongs are sort of an umbrella category that can include a gong up through a larger tam-tam.  Generally, the gong is smaller and higher pitched.  But what about a small tam-tam?  French might use a smaller/higher sounding tone than the Russians.  Like a Shostakovich tam-tam is darker than a Ravel Tam-tam.  Scriabin might use a huge, longer toned tam-tam.  Generally, a Prokofiev/Shostakovich tam-tam is 32" to 38".  I love the tam-tam the LSO is using in Walter Weller's, it's very Russian and likely between 32" to 38".  It has that quality.  This is part of why I adore this cycle (so far as I've reached No. 6) it is lyrical, dramatic, epic, and has the gravitas of the music.  It's a marvelous cycle!  My favorite so far...but I'll explore others next.  To my ears, Walter Weller is the equal to Beethoven's Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra / Carlos Kleiber cycle.

Interesting stuff!  As a slight aside before going back to Prokofiev - you are not strictly correct about Elgar.  For example in his "Crown of India" music he stipulates in the score BOTH a gong AND a tam-tam - he even gives the gong a pitch stating "gong in D" for the opening Introduction movement(!)  The closing "March of the Mogul Emperors" so beloved of the Great Sage Across the Sea has parts for both "Big Gong" and Tam-Tam so clearly Elgar understood/appreciated the subtle differences.  Off the top of my head I can't think of many other Elgar scores where he used a gong/tam-tam except Gerontius (the latter just marked "Tam" in score)?

Re Prokofiev cycles I slightly misled you.  I know/have Weller/Jarvi/Kitajenko/Martinon all of which I enjoy in their different ways.  What I meant by "considering Weller" was not that I know say Litton or Alsop or Gergiev etc but simply that Weller is still of such a musical and technical calibre to be used as a valid comparison.  Jarvi for years was the go-to cycle and of course included the alternative versions of No.4 which Weller doesn't.  Your point about Prokofiev the astringent lyricist is absolutely valid.  I enjoy the Martinon cycle because Martinon is such a good conductor.  But this is a cycle where the quality of playing and recording is not at the same level of more modern performances so there is a degree of compromise needed on that front - but they are by no means "bad" and I think worth hearing as interpretations.

vandermolen

The Weller set was the first one I owned and I always thought highly of it and still do.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

relm1

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 16, 2023, 11:46:48 PMInteresting stuff!  As a slight aside before going back to Prokofiev - you are not strictly correct about Elgar.  For example in his "Crown of India" music he stipulates in the score BOTH a gong AND a tam-tam - he even gives the gong a pitch stating "gong in D" for the opening Introduction movement(!)  The closing "March of the Mogul Emperors" so beloved of the Great Sage Across the Sea has parts for both "Big Gong" and Tam-Tam so clearly Elgar understood/appreciated the subtle differences.  Off the top of my head I can't think of many other Elgar scores where he used a gong/tam-tam except Gerontius (the latter just marked "Tam" in score)?

Re Prokofiev cycles I slightly misled you.  I know/have Weller/Jarvi/Kitajenko/Martinon all of which I enjoy in their different ways.  What I meant by "considering Weller" was not that I know say Litton or Alsop or Gergiev etc but simply that Weller is still of such a musical and technical calibre to be used as a valid comparison.  Jarvi for years was the go-to cycle and of course included the alternative versions of No.4 which Weller doesn't.  Your point about Prokofiev the astringent lyricist is absolutely valid.  I enjoy the Martinon cycle because Martinon is such a good conductor.  But this is a cycle where the quality of playing and recording is not at the same level of more modern performances so there is a degree of compromise needed on that front - but they are by no means "bad" and I think worth hearing as interpretations.

Fair point about Elgar and Crown of India.  My description was more of a generalization though can imagine at times they were specific. 

What modern cycles do you think hold up as peers to the vintage cycles? 

Atriod


Hurwitz's video on Prokofiev Symphony Cycles. Between the two cycles I have heard the most Rozhdestvensky remains my favorite by a wide margin over Jarvi.

I streamed some more of Litton's Prokofiev cycle where Hurwitz identified the 5th as a weakness and I would agree with that, and the performance is a bit too polite. Playing Rozhdestvensky afterward just showed how great this music is, his performance is very passionate, the climaxes are incredibly powerful, the percussion is not buried, and there is this overall atmosphere lacking in the Litton since his lacks the contrasts between the most dynamic and softest moments. Like the extreme contrasts of a militaristic march immediately going into a soft passage with a back and forth between the woodwinds and strings. Overall there is a living ebb and flow to Rozhdestvensky as he knows when to "send it" and when to hold back along with those touches of rubato.

The rest of Litton's cycle is quite good, but still not in the realms of Rozhdestvensky. Among non cycle performances Jurowski in Symphony 2 remains my favorite.

Karl Henning

I really cannot summon any interest in his opinion.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

DavidW

Quote from: Atriod on January 15, 2025, 06:15:58 AM

Hurwitz's video on Prokofiev Symphony Cycles. Between the two cycles I have heard the most Rozhdestvensky remains my favorite by a wide margin over Jarvi.

I streamed some more of Litton's Prokofiev cycle where Hurwitz identified the 5th as a weakness and I would agree with that, and the performance is a bit too polite. Playing Rozhdestvensky afterward just showed how great this music is, his performance is very passionate, the climaxes are incredibly powerful, the percussion is not buried, and there is this overall atmosphere lacking in the Litton since his lacks the contrasts between the most dynamic and softest moments. Like the extreme contrasts of a militaristic march immediately going into a soft passage with a back and forth between the woodwinds and strings. Overall there is a living ebb and flow to Rozhdestvensky as he knows when to "send it" and when to hold back along with those touches of rubato.

The rest of Litton's cycle is quite good, but still not in the realms of Rozhdestvensky. Among non cycle performances Jurowski in Symphony 2 remains my favorite.

I like Litton's recordings but my go-to is Weller for all time, and Alsop for modern. I'll have to try Rozhdstvensky!

Karl Henning

Quote from: DavidW on January 15, 2025, 08:52:31 AMI like Litton's recordings but my go-to is Weller for all time, and Alsop for modern. I'll have to try Rozhdstvensky!
It's a while since I've listened to the Rozhdestvensky set, but somehow I still prefer Ozawa (an old favorite of mine) and Zdeněk Košler. I love Litton's Ives. (Don't know his Prokofiev.)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

DavidW

Quote from: Karl Henning on January 15, 2025, 08:57:14 AMIt's a while since I've listened to the Rozhdestvensky set, but somehow I still prefer Ozawa (an old favorite of mine) and Zdeněk Košler. I love Litton's Ives. (Don't know his Prokofiev.)

Litton's Mahler is great and not as well-known. I like Ozawa's Prokofiev, but haven't heard Kosler.

foxandpeng

Kitayenko, with a side order of Karabits.
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

Karl Henning

Quote from: foxandpeng on January 15, 2025, 01:14:52 PMKitayenko, with a side order of Karabits.
I do like the Kitayenko set!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

foxandpeng

Quote from: Karl Henning on January 15, 2025, 01:27:48 PMI do like the Kitayenko set!

I like Kitayenko in pretty much everything, to be honest 😄
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

Karl Henning

Quote from: foxandpeng on January 15, 2025, 01:59:40 PMI like Kitayenko in pretty much everything, to be honest 😄
Ditto.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

foxandpeng

"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

I think Kitayenko recorded some or all of the symphonies twice. Plus so many different spellings for his name.

Cato

#57
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 16, 2023, 08:32:26 AMLeinsdorf is a Boston Legend!



Quote from: Cato on April 16, 2023, 10:31:18 AMThat is one BIG AMEN!, especially for his Prokofiev recordings with the Boston Symphony

I have not yet heard the Walter Weller/London Symphony/Philharmonic set, but the Symphonies #3 and #6 under Maestro Leinsdorf are fantastic!

I first heard them when they were new in the 1960's...

and my poor, little stereo system almost had a meltdown...especially with #3!  (Insert  ANGEL  E M O T I C O N  here!)  ;)



How did I forget the Symphony #2 with Erich Leinsdorf and Boston on RCA ?!

"Wow, Bob, wow!"  ;D    ;)




Not to be forgotten: Karajan's incredible Berlin Philharmonic recording of the Symphony #5 for DGG:




"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

ChamberNut

Maestro Neeme Järvi for me!



Formerly Brahmsian, OrchestralNut and Franco_Manitobain

Karl Henning

Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on January 15, 2025, 05:25:52 PMMaestro Neeme Järvi for me!




I've since revisited that set and it is much better than I originally gave it credit for. I'm still a bit annoyed at sloppy violas in one part of the Seventh (something which could and ought to have been fixed, so that one suspects that a rushed production schedule was to blame) but, be fair: nobody's perfect.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot