Henryk Mikolaj Gorecki (1933-2010)

[Mirror Image]

As I drove into work today the 'Sorrowful Songs' symphony was playing on BBC Radio 3.

Very nice, Jeffrey. I suppose you didn't get to the end of the performance to hear who the performance was by?

[vandermolen]

Very nice, Jeffrey. I suppose you didn't get to the end of the performance to hear who the performance was by?

When I retired from my teaching job in 2015 I no longer had a 50+ minute drive to school which allowed me to hear complete works - it was often the highlight of the day  often I'd stay in the car until I heard the complete work. My new part-time job involves only an eight minute drive to work so I only heard the opening movement. But, as it's you John, I did extensive online research ( ) and discovered it was the famous Upshaw/Zinman/Nonsuch performance - which none of us like! Still, it kept me in the car park until the movement ended.

[Monsieur Croche]

The Zinman / Upshaw performance has (to me) an inexorable and inevitable momentum, the timing, air-tight ensemble playing on the part of the orchestra, and perfect placement giving it an overwhelming and compelling pulse which I found completely absent in the polish recording.  Once heard, it is difficult to imagine another approach which could be as nearly successful. 

Conversely, I may as well say this.  Upshaw has a lovely voice: from a number of things I've heard, it sounds to me as though she sings absolutely any and all she touches exactly the same, giving everything a rather neutral prettiness I find more than a little flat considering the actual import of the texts meant to be conveyed.  Whatever it is, it is equally pretty, and has little or nothing to do with the meaning of the sung text.  She is a very pretty voice and near non-communicator.

The Polish recording has the opposite, no compelling pulse, an approcah or rending of the rhythm that sounds to me inattentively sloppy, while it does have a nearly raw emotional tenor that is absent from the Zinman / Upshaw recording.  Imo, this Polish performance is more than a little bit inappropriately over-the-top, considering the resignation and acceptance the composer spoke of when referring to these texts of a mother lamenting the loss of her child, but the over-emotive, I think, is far more desirable as far as communicating something emotional vs. the next to nothing at all on the Zinman / Upshaw rendering.

My thought is that either recording lacks about exactly half of what is needed to make an 'ideal' performance of the work. If the Zinman recording, with that inexorable pulse and the very tight balance and placement of the orchestral playing, could have instead had the Polish soprano from the Polish recording... bingo.

The introductory canonic movement, regardless of which performance, struck me as completely non-compelling, hopelessly academic and completely uninteresting, so failed to do anything for me or hold my interest past two hearings, the second was to give it  -- and me -- another chance, hoping that perhaps the unfavorable first impression would change or be wiped away;  it stayed exactly the same.  Any subsequent hearings on my part, I had to skip that first movement.

[vandermolen]

The Zinman / Upshaw performance has (to me) an inexorable and inevitable momentum, the timing, air-tight ensemble playing on the part of the orchestra, and perfect placement giving it an overwhelming and compelling pulse which I found completely absent in the polish recording.  Once heard, it is difficult to imagine another approach which could be as nearly successful. 

Conversely, I may as well say this.  Upshaw has a lovely voice: from a number of things I've heard, it sounds to me as though she sings absolutely any and all she touches exactly the same, giving everything a rather neutral prettiness I find more than a little flat considering the actual import of the texts meant to be conveyed.  Whatever it is, it is equally pretty, and has little or nothing to do with the meaning of the sung text.  She is a very pretty voice and near non-communicator.

The Polish recording has the opposite, no compelling pulse, an approcah or rending of the rhythm that sounds to me inattentively sloppy, while it does have a nearly raw emotional tenor that is absent from the Zinman / Upshaw recording.  Imo, this Polish performance is more than a little bit inappropriately over-the-top, considering the resignation and acceptance the composer spoke of when referring to these texts of a mother lamenting the loss of her child, but the over-emotive, I think, is far more desirable as far as communicating something emotional vs. the next to nothing at all on the Zinman / Upshaw rendering.

My thought is that either recording lacks about exactly half of what is needed to make an 'ideal' performance of the work. If the Zinman recording, with that inexorable pulse and the very tight balance and placement of the orchestral playing, could have instead had the Polish soprano from the Polish recording... bingo.

The introductory canonic movement, regardless of which performance, struck me as completely non-compelling, hopelessly academic and completely uninteresting, so failed to do anything for me or hold my interest past two hearings, the second was to give it  -- and me -- another chance, hoping that perhaps the unfavorable first impression would change or be wiped away;  it stayed exactly the same.  Any subsequent hearings on my part, I had to skip that first movement.

Very interesting review - thanks.

[Mirror Image]

When I retired from my teaching job in 2015 I no longer had a 50+ minute drive to school which allowed me to hear complete works - it was often the highlight of the day  often I'd stay in the car until I heard the complete work. My new part-time job involves only an eight minute drive to work so I only heard the opening movement. But, as its you John, I did extensive online research ( ) and discovered it was the famous Upshaw/Zinman/Nonsuch performance - which none of us like! Still, it kept me in the car park until the movement ended.

Thanks for your diligent research, Jeffrey! I appreciate it. Yeah, on a purely surface level the Upshaw/Zinman is attractive, but it's no more than that. After really listening to the Kilanowicz/Wit, I realized exactly why I prefer it over the more well-known, chart-topper and that's because they (Kilanowicz/Wit) don't treat this work like it's something from Schindler's List. As I may or may not have stated previously, Kilanowicz/Wit have this music in their blood and don't make the music too sugary or try to glorify it's message/intent.

Of course, I disagree with Monsieur Croche, and even more so since he just refers to the Kilanowicz/Wit as the 'Polish' recording (as if these performers were the only Poles to record the work).

[vandermolen]

I just played Symphony 4 for the first time even though I bought it when it first came out. At first I thought it sounded a bit weird, rather like a noisier and more disjointed version of the 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs' however, by the end I wanted to immediately play it again:
[asin]B0128Y8XU4[/asin]
The first movement reminded me a bit of the orchestral music of Jon Leifs, with quiet reflective moments juxtaposed against noisy interludes from the three bass drums.

[kyjo]

I just played Symphony 4 for the first time even though I bought it when it first came out. At first I thought it sounded a bit weird, rather like a noisier and more disjointed version of the 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs' however, by the end I wanted to immediately play it again:
[asin]B0128Y8XU4[/asin]
The first movement reminded me a bit of the orchestral music of Jon Leifs, with quiet reflective moments juxtaposed against noisy interludes from the three bass drums.

Sounds interesting, Jeffrey. I love the 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs' but have somehow not bothered to investigate any of Gorecki's other music.

[vandermolen]

Sounds interesting, Jeffrey. I love the 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs' but have somehow not bothered to investigate any of Gorecki's other music.

Thanks Kyle. I expect you'd enjoy Symphony 4 even though it is a bit disconcerting at first!

[snyprrr]

Sounds interesting, Jeffrey. I love the 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs' but have somehow not bothered to investigate any of Gorecki's other music.

That's because... you know,... you just know

[vandermolen]

I also like Symphony 2 'Copernican' which, after a discordant crash, bang, wallop opening movement, features a beautiful, tranquil second movement, presumably representing the beauty, simplicity and harmony of the Copernican universe. This structure reminded me a bit of Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Latest on ClassicsToday:

Latest on @ClassicsToday: "Kaleidoscopic" - Gorecki, Pärt, and Rääts for Clarinet, Cello & Piano


Uffda!

[Brahmsian]

Just bought this yesterday.  Looking forward to diving into it.  My only exposure to Gorecki is the famous 3rd symphony.  7 discs of the complete Nonesuch label recordings.

[asin]B012HENBSO[/asin]

[vandermolen]

Just bought this yesterday.  Looking forward to diving into it.  My only exposure to Gorecki is the famous 3rd symphony.  7 discs of the complete Nonesuch label recordings.

[asin]B012HENBSO[/asin]

Looks like a great set. Happy exploring!

[TheGSMoeller]

A new recording of Gorecki's 3rd Symphony by the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Krzysztof Penderecki. But the interesting player in this is Beth Gibbons, lead singer of the English trip-hop band, Portishead. This choice may easily turn listeners away, but I find Gibbons' brittle, broken and raw voice delivering a beautifully tragic, and a really needed rendition for this work. Gibbons creates a more natural atmosphere, rather than a professional soprano voice, with this I could truly visualize a women painfully singing about her lost-dead son in the 3rd movement, or listen to the end of the 2nd mvt as she calmly closes the prayer. Beautiful.
The PNRSO and Penderecki are fine, nothing revelatory with the orchestral parts is happening here, but that's alright because this is all about Gibbons.
I'm a big fan of this performance.

[asin]B07N43N948[/asin]

[André]

I also like Symphony 2 'Copernican' which, after a discordant crash, bang, wallop opening movement, features a beautiful, tranquil second movement, presumably representing the beauty, simplicity and harmony of the Copernican universe. This structure reminded me a bit of Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

+ 1 for no 2, a work I like as much as its more famous successor. Gorecki is a multi-faceted composer, somewhat like Kancheli: some of his music is soothing, trancendentally beautiful, some is violent and disturbing. I think his string quartets are my favourite part of his output. His film music is quite accomplished, too.

[vandermolen]

A new recording of Gorecki's 3rd Symphony by the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Krzysztof Penderecki. But the interesting player in this is Beth Gibbons, lead singer of the English trip-hop band, Portishead. This choice may easily turn listeners away, but I find Gibbons' brittle, broken and raw voice delivering a beautifully tragic, and a really needed rendition for this work. Gibbons creates a more natural atmosphere, rather than a professional soprano voice, with this I could truly visualize a women painfully singing about her lost-dead son in the 3rd movement, or listen to the end of the 2nd mvt as she calmly closes the prayer. Beautiful.
The PNRSO and Penderecki are fine, nothing revelatory with the orchestral parts is happening here, but that's alright because this is all about Gibbons.
I'm a big fan of this performance.

[asin]B07N43N948[/asin]

Interesting. I just received this recording and will look forward to playing it. Thanks for the review.

[vandermolen]

+ 1 for no 2, a work I like as much as its more famous successor. Gorecki is a multi-faceted composer, somewhat like Kancheli: some of his music is soothing, trancendentally beautiful, some is violent and disturbing. I think his string quartets are my favourite part of his output. His film music is quite accomplished, too.

I must investigate the sq's and film music. Glad you enjoy the 'Copernican' as well Andre.

[vers la flamme]

Bump for a great composer...

A new recording of Gorecki's 3rd Symphony by the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Krzysztof Penderecki. But the interesting player in this is Beth Gibbons, lead singer of the English trip-hop band, Portishead. This choice may easily turn listeners away, but I find Gibbons' brittle, broken and raw voice delivering a beautifully tragic, and a really needed rendition for this work. Gibbons creates a more natural atmosphere, rather than a professional soprano voice, with this I could truly visualize a women painfully singing about her lost-dead son in the 3rd movement, or listen to the end of the 2nd mvt as she calmly closes the prayer. Beautiful.
The PNRSO and Penderecki are fine, nothing revelatory with the orchestral parts is happening here, but that's alright because this is all about Gibbons.
I'm a big fan of this performance.

[asin]B07N43N948[/asin]

I'm just getting around to hearing this recording, though I got it last year. I absolutely love the Symphony of Sorrowful Songs, having first heard it when I was in high school, the famous Dawn Upshaw/Zinman/Sinfonietta recording. I fell in love with that performance, and I imprinted on it strongly, so when I see folks in here saying it's inauthentic and that the Wit is miles beyond, it's perplexing, but it makes me extremely curious to hear that recording.

Anyway. As for the matter at hand, I actually really enjoy Penderecki's take on this. It's much more earthbound than what Zinman does with it. I like the faster tempi, likely done in part to accommodate the untrained Ms. Gibbons. So I enjoy her vocal, and I think her voice really does suit the music, but my one complaint is that I think it is mixed somewhat poorly—she sounds amplified and at times overpowers the orchestra, but in a way that sounds unnatural. That being said, I'm a huge Portishead fan and I love her voice, so I don't mean to complain to much, but I'm afraid I can't recommend it to the casual classical music fan without that asterisk.

Anyway, I'm going to seek out the Wit recording (with the same orchestra as here) and see if it beats out the Upshaw in my estimation. I can't believe how many times this symphony has been recorded, by all the major labels, too. Interesting.

[vandermolen]

Bump for a great composer...

I'm just getting around to hearing this recording, though I got it last year. I absolutely love the Symphony of Sorrowful Songs, having first heard it when I was in high school, the famous Dawn Upshaw/Zinman/Sinfonietta recording. I fell in love with that performance, and I imprinted on it strongly, so when I see folks in here saying it's inauthentic and that the Wit is miles beyond, it's perplexing, but it makes me extremely curious to hear that recording.

Anyway. As for the matter at hand, I actually really enjoy Penderecki's take on this. It's much more earthbound than what Zinman does with it. I like the faster tempi, likely done in part to accommodate the untrained Ms. Gibbons. So I enjoy her vocal, and I think her voice really does suit the music, but my one complaint is that I think it is mixed somewhat poorly—she sounds amplified and at times overpowers the orchestra, but in a way that sounds unnatural. That being said, I'm a huge Portishead fan and I love her voice, so I don't mean to complain to much, but I'm afraid I can't recommend it to the casual classical music fan without that asterisk.

Anyway, I'm going to seek out the Wit recording (with the same orchestra as here) and see if it beats out the Upshaw in my estimation. I can't believe how many times this symphony has been recorded, by all the major labels, too. Interesting.

Listening to it now. It's quite an extraordinary performance.

[Brahmsian]

These two, ordered from Presto.  Not sure the exact delivery date.  Looking forward to these as a comparison to the Zinman/Upshaw (which I adore):