Weird scraping techniques

[PetroHead]

Hello

Hope everyone is doing fine.
I want your input about pieces from rather obscure composers who employ a great deal of weird acoustic sound effects in their scores. For example someone like Helmut Lachenmann, whose music almost always contains novel sounds from standard instruments through the employment of esoteric techniques.

Other pertinent mentions include Michael von Biel's string quartet. That whole composition has not even a single shred of standard technique. Similarly Mauricio Kagel's early string quartets also employed such avant garde tricks.

So lets have it folks and as you can judge from my examples I'm solely interested in modern/contemporary classical composers at the moment.

Thank You

p.s Only acoustic sounds, no electronics/tapes etc.

[greg]

my thoughts.......
most of the good scores with that stuff is too expensive and often hard to find....
but i have seen examples in books. Kagel's string quartets are fun, and so is a lot of Lachenmann's music. Have you heard much of Penderecki's stuff?

[PetroHead]

Yup I know Penderecki. His early stuff did help to popularise such techniques.

I'm not searching for scores to study, I don't read music. I just want pieces which fit my parameters to listen to.

[jochanaan]

I suppose you could go back to that one overture of Rossini's where he makes the strings tap their bows on their music stands.

Slightly off-topic:  Was it Berlioz who first wrote for col legno, in the Symphonie fantastique?  That's the earliest example I can think of.

[greg]

Slightly off-topic:  Was it Berlioz who first wrote for col legno, in the Symphonie fantastique?  That's the earliest example I can think of.

i did a little searching, and couldn't find the answer directly, but it looks like that's most likely the first use of col legno. 

[snyprrr]

John Zorn's SQs. Thee extremest!
Elliott Sharp's SQs.

Roland Dahinden.(Arditti)

Henrik Ole Moe.(Arditti)

[Dax]

i did a little searching, and couldn't find the answer directly, but it looks like that's most likely the first use of col legno. 

Not so. Biber's Battalia is earlier. It also uses Bartok pizzicatos and prepared double bass.

I don't know what this performance is like, but if you've not heard the work, try this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORpJXp7Paxg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUv4-_p6xg8

[greg]

Are we really all that sure this thread isn't about cockroach mating habits?

[Ugh!]

Only string techniques?

[snyprrr]

"once, at band camp, I put a flute..."

[greg]

"once, at band camp, I put a flute..."

lol...... along the same lines...

"The best girlfriends are either clarinetists or oboists..."

[Mark G. Simon]

These gimmicky techniques were all the rage when I was in college, especially tapping on the body of a string instrument and bowing behind the bridge. They were already pretty much passe by the time I was in grad school.

Used in moderation, special techniques can add color to a composition, but really, if you need more than one or two taps, a percussionist is probably the better solution.

Use the right tool for the job.

[snyprrr]

I, for one, am particularly fond of the different tapping sounds, though I don't hear it that often, and yes, not always with sensitivity. But, to save money on a percussionist, I think tapping or thumping can add nice accents.

Name the top 3 SQs known for foot stomping. Rausch!

Vocalizing, on the other hand, I've only heard integrated well a couple of times. Just like silent movie stars moving into talkies, string quartet members seem to uniformly have funny sounding voices. "One...two...threeeee...", like the tootsie-pop owl, haha.

The use of a plectrum can be interesting. Mutes.

In one of Rihm's SQs you can hear Arditti write the word "amore" on the score with his bow. Zappa tore paper in his Shark/Boulez symphony.

Of course, these are not scraping tech.

[jochanaan]

...Vocalizing, on the other hand, I've only heard integrated well a couple of times. Just like silent movie stars moving into talkies, string quartet members seem to uniformly have funny sounding voices. "One...two...threeeee...", like the tootsie-pop owl, haha.

To continue one step farther along this rabbit trail: George Crumb's "Starchild" includes the tubaist speaking through his tuba.  It sounds corny, but in context it works well.

[snyprrr]

ok, Top 3 SQs which feature foot stomping:

Holliger (1973)
Vogelin 4 Scenes (1980)
Gielen Un Veiux Souvenir (1983)

THE BEST SQ EVER for this kind of thing is Holliger's 1973 SQ. Sounds have been integrated into a "death of music" scheme that slowly wears out its material "to death." It starts with sounds sounding like crackling sparks from a fire and proceeds to...well, at about 30min., it REALLY goes through the process. I find this more involved than even Xenakis' Tetras (usually cited as THE wild SQ). btw- Holliger has written an SQ2.

[Bunny]

To continue one step farther along this rabbit trail: George Crumb's "Starchild" includes the tubaist speaking through his tuba.  It sounds corny, but in context it works well.

Crumb's ear is like the palate of the finest chef.  They both make the preposterous seem natural and delicious.

[snyprrr]

I think I would like Crumb better if he sounded more like Sciarrino. Crumb comes off to me as being too fragile and off the cuff, always threatening to fall into silence. Maybe "thin" sounding is the word? No matter the forces used (as with many composers), Crumb's m.o. always comes through, though.

I DO like the idea and the intricate numerology of "Black Angels", I just find that what ends up hitting my ears is lacking in something that I can't yet put my finger on. I know Crumb needs to be SEEN and heard, so I don't really hold it against him, though. And he IS kind of at the forefront of this style, so I can't hold any perceived "lacking" against him since there weren't any guideposts to follow at the time. I'm wondering if there is a current/younger composer who has perfected Crumb's general m.o., someone who has grown up in our hype-tech age and uses the media with a little more lived-in feel than what I get from 1970s Crumb.

And, of course, he needs the BEST recording to bring out the nuances. I haven't heard any of the Bridge cds, but I can imagine they are pretty spectacular.

I don't mean to harp on Crumb here (there is a Crumb thread around here that hasn't gone anywhere). He certainly is one of the wackiest out there, probably only trumped by Kagel, N.Huber, Hespos, maybe Stockhausen (any other names?). Licht vs. Star-Child?

However, I DO think "Black Angels" is one of the most important CONCEPTS of these strange times, just not executed with the degree of "magnum opus" that I personally would have liked. But, that's quibbling.

Why do I always feel defensive talking about composers I have issues with?

[snyprrr]

What about Globokar?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Slightly off-topic:  Was it Berlioz who first wrote for col legno, in the Symphonie fantastique?  That's the earliest example I can think of.

Is it in the last movement? That one? -->
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/05.%20Ronde%20Du%20Sabbat.mp3[/mp3]
Listened to this work a few weeks ago for the first time, live, and heard that fascinating effect also for the first time there.

[jochanaan]

novelty surface effects and interesting idiomatic 'sounds' coaxed from an instrument etc. are fine perhaps when used sparingly, some spice...but ultimately all the novely effects, interesting sounds & noises in the world don't say a thing and are empty if the musical content & substance isn't there.

So would you call, say, Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima a "novelty piece"?