Bach vs. Beethoven!

[karlhenning]

His often tiresome excessive use of force to grab the listeners attention as in...I AM SHOUTING. CAN YOU HEAR ME. THIS BIT IS LOUD. IT IS THE CLIMAX. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. etc. Stuff like that for instance.

I don't find Beethoven's use of dynamic range tiresome.

And another listener, you know, will find certain aspects of Bach's work tiresome, instead, of course.

[orbital]

As much as I admire Bach, the choice was easy.
                              V  ^
                              |   |
       -------------------   |
      |    -------------------
      |   |
      V  ^
Beethoven wins again!!

[oyasumi]

Beethoven's slow movements are just too long. Bach's should never end. Bach wins.

[Scriptavolant]

Why? Is it because of the smaller instrumental forces? I don't agree.

Not only a matter of instrumental forces (I wouldn't say that instrumental forces has no bearing on the artistic intention, though), but of poetic contents. Take for example the "Canzona di ringraziamento" from Op. 132 or the Adagio with variations from Op. 127, or maybe the late string quartets as a corpus. I can feel a major ammount of intimist elucubration, of solitary reflection. The "Choral Symphony" was more of a gift for mankind, a sort of collective archetype.
Of course it is not so easy to define such abstract nuances in language, to give straight definition or to differentiate sharply. Thus, no surprise you could not agree.

[Kullervo]

His often tiresome excessive use of force to grab the listeners attention as in...I AM SHOUTING. CAN YOU HEAR ME. THIS BIT IS LOUD. IT IS THE CLIMAX. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. etc. Stuff like that for instance..

It's very easy to see and no surprise really why he's probably preferred to Bach who never resorted to silly things like this, and who's music is often perceived as much more austere, dry, more subtle in comparison...  ...it doesnt have the bombast and theatre so often present/transparent in LvB, which folks love no doubt. It just screams out for their attention. To me a lot of it is quite vacuous, despite the dry formal technicalities/achievements, like the structural inter-relationships he created in broader forms etc. He spent a lot of time setting his ego to music and was pretty wrapped up in himself. Bach wrote for a higher purpose/aspiration, for the glory of God, this clearly backlights the music. Beethoven thought he was one and it's very ego-centric. He was truly nowhere near Bach's level of genius insight and density of thought. Listen to a Beethoven (or Mozart for that matter) fugue and you'll hear what I mean. But then again he (they) weren't really interested in writing like that for the most part...

I do hear the ostensible differences in the later work of LvB, like the late piano sonatas & late string quartets, but experience the same boorishness that is present in his earlier work. The music is dressed a bit differently, but is permeated by the same characteristic.

just my view. doubt anyone will agree, that's ok though...

Your half-informed arguments are tiresome. I doubt anyone will disagree, and that's OK.

[karlhenning]

Beethoven's slow movements are just too long.

Not in the least :-)

[Scriptavolant]

Once again I cannot completely disagree with James.
I would simply say that the poetics of emotion and sentimentalism, still have major ascendancy on listeners.

[oyasumi]

Plus, Bach didn't write any bad music. Beethoven did, which isn't something to criticize him for, but it makes Bach better.

[Larry Rinkel]

Not to mention all of the extra-musical romantic hype & baggage that clouds perceptions...

No, it is your uncritical acceptance of a clichéd view of Beethoven the Thunderer that is clouding your perceptions... Take off the sunglasses.

I must say, for someone who is going on and on about subtlety vs. bombast, you exhibit a striking lack of the former and a striking abundance of the latter.

[Larry Rinkel]

Plus, Bach didn't write any bad music. Beethoven did, which isn't something to criticize him for, but it makes Bach better.

That doesn't even make sense . . .

[Haffner]

I don't find Beethoven's use of dynamic range tiresome.

And another listener, you know, will find certain aspects of Bach's work tiresome, instead, of course.

Beethoven banged very loudly at times. So did Bach. So?

[oyasumi]

That doesn't even make sense . . .

It does.

[Don]

Beethoven banged very loudly at times. So did Bach. So?

Beethoven banged loudly 45% more often than Bach.

[quintett op.57]

I agree partially, since I think that acknowledging Beethoven's self-assertion doesn't imply a depreciation of his music or his genius. I mean: I'm not considering the term "self-assertion" as a negative feature.
But I consider it to be a fact that Bach pureness and rigour, his supreme impersonality (common to most of the pre-romantic music) was lost in XIXth Century, starting with Beethoven.
That consideration, which is widely accepted among scholars, obviously reflects my own personal taste and inclinations.

I tend to agree.
If james was 1% objective, you've quoted this 1%.

Self-assertion brought so much to music and to art in general.
Blessed be self-assertion!

I voted LOUDwig, you guessed

[Larry Rinkel]

It does.

Well, that explains things.

[Scriptavolant]

I tend to agree.
If james was 1% objective, you've quoted this 1%.

Self-assertion brought so much to music and to art in general.
Blessed be self-assertion!

I voted LOUDwig, you guessed

To explain a little better, I don't even think Beethoven is the clearest example of self-assertion. In his late music the fusion between poetical burst and musical perfection is so complete you can hardly feel any triviality.
Troubles with self-assertion had to come later, in my opinion, and usually listeners/critics, not composers, were to blame for the encumbering extra-musical baggage James mentioned.

[prémont]

Karl, you're PhD, you really cannot tell any difference between Romantic and Baroque expressiveness? You really cannot grasp the meaning of "supreme impersonality"? You think music from very different periods has always the same flat ammount of sentimental contents?
These are themes Thomas Eliot developed profoundly for example (in poetry). Not merely my opinion.

You confuse form and content. Every composer needs self-assertion whether his name is Bach or Beethoven, as far as the spiritual content of his work (almost) always is an expression of his personal emotions. Only the surface (style) may be different (e..g. baroque or romantic). And Bach´s music is as to content certainly some of the most personal music ever written. His music is most often about his personal emotions in relation to (his) God. For comparation much of LvB´s music is about his personal emotions in relation to his young female piano-pupils, but for both composers the content of their music is the description of their personal emotions.

Karl, Correct me if I am wrong.

[Scriptavolant]

You confuse form and content.

Yes, and consciously. I don't believe in this trite Romantic worthless dualism between form and content.

[Larry Rinkel]

For comparation much of LvB´s music is about his personal emotions in relation to his young female piano-pupils.

Much of LvB's music is about discovering new possibilities for expanding the language of sonata form, variations, rondo, scherzo, and fugue.

Karl, Correct me if I am wrong.

Not Karl, but done.

[karlhenning]

I just didn't get it, as usual