Bach vs. Beethoven!

[Haffner]

You confuse form and content. Every composer needs self-assertion

Could it be possible to not assert oneself? That word, "need" gives me troubles.

Nietzsche put down the Stoic school of thought; in Beyond Good and Evil he summarized their belief system as having to do with worshipping what is considered "Natural".

So, for the Stoics, Nature=Life, thus one should live according to Life.

As Nietzsche exasperatedly wrote "how can you not live 'according to life'?"

How can you not express your Self? Perhaps the situation the Self is in is just as important (if not more). But it's hard for me to see an individual doing anything without somehow expressing him or herself, even if it's "just" a matter of simple presence.

[Saul]

Some would remember the Mozart vs. Beethoven tread we had a few years back...

[Haffner]

The Toccata and Fugue in D minor is an example of a piece that is about as thundering as the most "Heavy Metal" pieces in LvB's repetoire. And there are several other examples in Bach that come to mind.


When I read someone discussing how much less Bach (as opposed to LvB) represented himself as a personality in his music, I tend to wonder whether people are taking into account the historical context in which both J.S. and LvB lived. What could be seen as "personal" in LvB's music might have seemed quite im-or even anti-personal in LvB's day, and vice versa. I'm sure that James has thought of this.

Many people on the Internet have pondered whether LvB's "musical personality" is making him recognized as the greatest Composer of All Time today due mainly to the fact that he was more "recent" than Bach, Mozart, Haydn, etc. And Wagner, being even more "recent" (but not dead long enough to warrant "Greatest" acclamations), is getting more reknowned than ever.

To me, that last in particular tends to portray the psyche of the average Cultural appraiser (and perhaps even more than that). Something has to be "old" to be venerable, yet "new" enough to revoke the "old" Convenant.

Makes me more hopeful/borderline confident in the eventual, deservedly more thorough appreciation of Rock and Metal music in the 22nd century.

[Haffner]

And when I'm in the mood for the best of Bach fused with the best of Beethoven ....... I opt for Brahms .......

There's some validity here...although there are also pieces like Schumann's Piano Quintet (last movement) which traverse similar territory as D mentioned.

Just my opinion. Also, it seems some posters here see Schubert as perhaps the "best of...", only with LvB and Mozart in mind.

[Haffner]

When it comes down to the epochal genius of both the vs. simply does NOT apply only your preferences and even that is subject to your moods!

There is a dimension in Beethoven which does not exist in Bach. Call it the Enlightenment, the Kantian revolution or the incipience of an Existential philosophy. Beethoven certainly, according to his life and times, had more reason to be existential than most.

Bach was the Aquinas of music, a mystic, a theorist, whose definitive summation of Technique and Belief was not unlike that of Bruckner in the 19th century whose genius too was completely dedicated to the greater glory of God.

...at least these perceptions of God are good for something!

Obviously these kinds of sound expressions grant different perspectives...so when is this drivel going to end??

You probably already thought of this, Max: It might be that you see Beethoven as the reflection of a set of ideologies which are more pleasing to you.

[Haffner]

You want drivel?  Have I got a thread for you .........

The subtlety and restraint displayed here in not posting a link to such a thread(s) speaks volumes...

[karlhenning]

Bach was not a theorist, thank heavens!  He was a practicing, and producing, creative artist.

[Haffner]

Bach was not a theorist, thank heavens!  He was a practicing, and producing, creative artist.

It seems rare that a composer can be both. Copland comes to mind...tremendous books, excellent compositions...

[Haffner]

larry, ive been around for along time, probably longer than you and most of the others here...Bach is my fave
you seem like an upset LvB fanboy, as soon as I said I wasnt much of a LvB fan u were one of the first to jump in saying "how much do you know" etc....there are so many other composers id choose to listen to before good ol' LvB for many reasons, I could go on and on as to why I don't like him, some of which ive stated in the thread already, learn to deal with other peoples preferences my friend.

I certainly respect your preferences, James. Bach is a real Giant.

However,  I am a little disappointed that you never answered my question in regard to pointing out specifically what is so "impersonal" in Bach's music, as opposed to LvB. I honestly was just very curious.

[Haffner]

I never said Bach's music was "impersonal", it obviously ment a lot to him and his life...so I have no idea where you got this...

Forgive me once more, please. I must have read your posts wrong.

[karlhenning]

I never said Bach's music was "impersonal", it obviously ment a lot to him and his life...so I have no idea where you got this...

Briefly this:

Must admit im not really a fan of LvB, I understand his formal innovations but...the character and underlying aesthetic of it turns me off in a big way. He was a big drama queen you know, and wallowed in that an awful lot. I really have to be in the mood to listen to him. The over-assertion of self in his music via dynamics etc. ugh...To me, Bach is the man, the untouchable great....nothing naft, bombastic, egotistical or vulgar in his offerings, pure music tapped into the very source and a harmonic depth & understanding that Beethoven himself famously acknowledged & dreamt of having...

Beethoven doesnt come close IMHO. But no one really did, and they knew it too!

you seem like an upset LvB fanboy, as soon as I said I wasnt much of a LvB fan u were one of the first to jump in saying "how much do you know" etc.

Saying you're not much of a fan of Beethoven, would be one thing.  Calling Beethoven "a big drama queen you know" is quite another;  and when you set a tone like that, you're inviting people who do, in fact, know more about Beethoven than you do, to call you to the carpet, James. Corkin' Rod got his comeuppance when he tried to puff Handel up by trashing Bach;  your approach (not the intent of the OP, of course) to this is exactly on that primitive level ("Bach is da man, LvB be heap big drama queen").

Your vague notion of musical "purity" is suspect here;  there is nothing "impure" about Beethoven's work, any more than about Bach's.

[karlhenning]

Forgive me once more, please. I must have read your posts wrong.

I don't think it is so much a matter of your reading him wrong, Andy, as James trying to be a little slippery.  He's been more than a little adolescent here, but he's trying to play "Oh, I've always been aboveboard" now.

[Kullervo]

Briefly this:

Saying you're not much of a fan of Beethoven, would be one thing.  Calling Beethoven "a big drama queen you know" is quite another;  and when you set a tone like that, you're inviting people who do, in fact, know more about Beethoven than you do, to call you to the carpet, James. Corkin' Rod got his comeuppance when he tried to puff Handel up by trashing Bach;  your approach (not the intent of the OP, of course) to this is exactly on that primitive level ("Bach is da man, LvB be heap big drama queen").

Your vague notion of musical "purity" is suspect here;  there is nothing "impure" about Beethoven's work, any more than about Bach's.

Checkmate.

[karlhenning]

In fairness to James, the "supreme impersonality" canard came from Scriptavolent.

[Larry Rinkel]

larry, ive been around for along time, probably longer than you and most of the others here...Bach is my fave
you seem like an upset LvB fanboy, as soon as I said I wasnt much of a LvB fan u were one of the first to jump in saying "how much do you know" etc....there are so many other composers id choose to listen to before good ol' LvB for many reasons, I could go on and on as to why I don't like him, some of which ive stated in the thread already, learn to deal with other peoples preferences my friend.

Coming from someone who has previously stated -

Now now Larry, let's not sling personal attacks about, that's pretty childish...let's keep it civil.

- to assert yourself as "someone been around for along time, probably longer than you and most of the others here," when the fact is you know nothing of my background, and to call me "an upset LvB fanboy" are both pretty good examples of the pot calling the kettle black - as I have previously stated. Res ipsa loquitur. Look it up.

[Florestan]

Easy choice.

For symphonies, piano concertos, piano sonatas, string quartets, piano trios and other chamber music --- Beethoven all the way.

For cantatas, oratorios, organ music, solo violin and cello sonatas and partitas, concertos for several instruments and orchestra --- Bach all the way.

[marvinbrown]

I withdraw the question, your honor  : What if you could not have a Wagner av, Marvin;  and there were only two choices for your av: Bach or Beethoven.

Which would you choose?

  To answer Karl's withdrawn question (belatedly- I'm on holiday and access to the internet is scarce) in lieu of a Wagner avatar I'd choose an schizophrenic avatar with half of Beethoven's face fused with half of Bach's face- again impossible to choose between two of the greatest men in music.

  marvin

[Haffner]

  To answer Karl's withdrawn question (belatedly- I'm on holiday and access to the internet is scarce) in lieu of a Wagner avatar I'd choose an schizophrenic avatar with half of Beethoven's face fused with half of Bach's face- again impossible to choose between two of the greatest men in music.

  marvin

Hmmm....no! Quadrophenia...the faces of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, and Wagner!

JA!

[orbital]

So you voted for Bach?

yes sir. just switched the names to show the way it works for me. In those cases there is only one final arbiter: Whose CD(s) do you pull out of your case more frequently (or in my case do I go one or two 'pages down' to reach the composer I want to listen to 

[karlhenning]

In those cases there is only one final arbiter: Whose CD(s) do you pull out of your case more frequently . . . .

Yes, in simplifying the question to this practice, I clearly was "voting" for Beethoven.

But naturally, I have no quarrel with anyone whose practice favors Old Bach  0:)

Just a quarrel with anyone blathering about "drama queens"