Joly Braga Santos

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Listening to Lilburn's Symphony No. 1. The music is very accomplished, though I'll have to listen to it two times at least, to get all the Sibelius reminiscences out of the way and to see what Lilburn himself is doing. This is a very strange experience, when you hear the music through the filter of another composer. But still -the music isn't in essence derivative. But how exactly Lilburn is different I don't know yet.

Edit: The curious case of Douglas Lilburn... I have listened to the First two times now. Things did start to become clearer, especially the first movement, though the pervasive presence of Sibelius didn't stop 'clouding' my aural vision. Lilburn seems to have distilled (if that's possible) the style of the Fourth and Tapiola and made an original symphony out of it. The Moeran and Walton 1 are also influenced by Sibelius, but not in this extraordinary way. I hope Lilburn's Second will shed more light on its predecessor. Very strange.

[vandermolen]

Listening to Lilburn's Symphony No. 1. The music is very accomplished, though I'll have to listen to it two times at least, to get all the Sibelius reminiscences out of the way and to see what Lilburn himself is doing. This is a very strange experience, when you hear the music through the filter of another composer. But still -the music isn't in essence derivative. But how exactly Lilburn is different I don't know yet.

Edit: The curious case of Douglas Lilburn... I have listened to the First two times now. Things did start to become clearer, especially the first movement, though the pervasive presence of Sibelius didn't stop 'clouding' my aural vision. Lilburn seems to have distilled (if that's possible) the style of the Fourth and Tapiola and made an original symphony out of it. The Moeran and Walton 1 are also influenced by Sibelius, but not in this extraordinary way. I hope Lilburn's Second will shed more light on its predecessor. Very strange.

Thanks Johan for the interesting feedback. Lilburn's Aotearoa Overture is another favourite.

[karlhenning]

How many of us have heard all six of the Braga Santos symphonies?  Just curious.  I've only heard half of them (Second, Third & Sixth) . . . at present, I am (correctly) preoccupied with getting some music written, else this thread would encourage me to revisit these three of the Braga Santos symphonies (something which I have a good will to do, all the same).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

How many of us have heard all six of the Braga Santos symphonies?  Just curious.

Christo has. I have listened to the Second and the Fourth so far.

[vandermolen]

I have them all.

Favourites in order

No 4/No 3
No 1
No 2
No 5
No 6

[Harry]

I have them all.

Favourites in order

No 4/No 3
No 1
No 2
No 5
No 6

You are a lucky fellow, I am not getting them complete, without investing a enormous amount of money.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I have them all.

Favourites in order

No 4/No 3
No 1
No 2
No 5
No 6

Sorry, Jeffrey. I didn't know you had heard all of them, too...

[karlhenning]

Thanks, Johan, Jeffrey & Harry!

[Dundonnell]

I have them all.

Favourites in order

No 4/No 3
No 1
No 2
No 5
No 6

Me, too.....!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Me, too.....!!!

I give up. 

New question: who hasn't heard all the Braga Santos symphonies? 

[Christo]

Overlooked this threat untill Johan pointed me to it, so here I am, but with little to add. For what Dundonnell and Vandermolen have told is all very correct and very much in line with my impressions. I also prefer nos 3 and 4, closely followed by 1 and 2, and I have a genuine liking for both nos 5 and 6 too (the tonal ending of no. 6, an extended and very melancholic sort of Sea Song, is quite remarkable imho).

I don't think, much of Braga Santos's other pieces have been discussed here, yet. I must say, I love them all, but especially: Divertimento no. 1, Variações sobre um tema alentejano, the Viola concerto.

One more remark, if you all here allow me. However much I revere him, and I do love the symphonies, yet I never felt him to be a symphonist of equal status with e.g. Vaughan Williams or Tubin. The reason being, that I feel his symphonies 1-4 (and other compositions from his twenties, he wrote these four symphonies between the age of 21 and 27 ...) are derivative of his examples, especially some British composers.

He obviously knew Vaughan Williams, Moeran and Walton, to mention the strongest influences in these early symphonies. I even accidently discovered a direct link, perhaps a quote. Imo, the opening bars of the Scherzo of the Third Symphony (1949) are almost identical to the opening bars of Moeran's Sinfonietta (1945).

Could he have heard Moeran on the BBC long wire, in 1946 or 1947? Portugal had strong British connections, in those days, and I know Braga Santos owned LPs with British music, but probably he was able to hear them on the Radio? Could any of our Portuguese friends here help us here?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

He obviously knew Vaughan Williams, Moeran and Walton, to mention the strongest influences in these early symphonies. I even accidently discovered a direct link, perhaps a quote. Imo, the opening bars of the Scherzo of the Third Symphony (1949) are almost identical to the opening bars of Moeran's Sinfonietta (1945).

Just checked. Hm... I think there is a far stronger similarity between the third movement (Allegro tranquillo) of BS's Fourth and the 3rd movement (Vivace) of Moeran's Symphony... But interesting all the same that BS could have heard English music! There is the famous Heward recording from 1942(4?) of Moeran's Symphony he could have heard, for example.

[Christo]

Just checked. Hm...

I don't have the music, am just dependent on recordings. The similarity is not strong with e.g. Lloyd-Jones performance of the Sinfonietta with the BSO (Naxos). But looms large in quite a didfferent reading of the opening bars by Adrian Boult conducting the Philharmonic Orchestra in a BBC Radio Recording from 1963 (Carlton Classics). And I presume that version to be much closer to what Braga Santos may have heard in the 1940s ....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I don't have the music, am just dependent on recordings. The similarity is not strong with e.g. Lloyd-Jones performance of the Sinfonietta with the BSO (Naxos). But looms large in quite a didfferent reading of the opening bars by Adrian Boult conducting the Philharmonic Orchestra in a BBC Radio Recording from 1963 (Carlton Classics). And I presume that version to be much closer to what Braga Santos may have heard in the 1940s ....

So am I, alas... I compared Boult on Lyrita (both Sinfonietta and Symphony) with the Marco Polo recordings. I think the similarity is stronger between Fourth and Symphony than  between Third and Sinfonietta. But others could hear this differently, of course...

[vandermolen]

I give up. 

New question: who hasn't heard all the Braga Santos symphonies? 

This is all inspiring me to listen to more BS tonight. I bet he heard some VW/Moeran/Walton on the BBC or on LP. Portugal is England's oldest ally (both enemies of Spain, I guess, in the days of the Armada), so there have always been strongish cultural links. I gather from the Marco Polo notes that BS was not really appreciated in his own country and was too modest to "blow his own trumpet". Probably the Radio in Portugal was too busy playing Vaughan Williams and Moeran to find time (as they clearly should have done) to play the fine music of their greatest composer. I regard him as a worthier Portuguese national figure than Ronaldo of Manchester United  (for Chelsea)

[Dundonnell]

This is all inspiring me to listen to more BS tonight. I bet he heard some VW/Moeran/Walton on the BBC or on LP. Portugal is England's oldest ally (both enemies of Spain, I guess, in the days of the Armada), so there have always been strongish cultural links. I gather from the Marco Polo notes that BS was not really appreciated in his own country and was too modest to "blow his own trumpet". Probably the Radio in Portugal was too busy playing Vaughan Williams and Moeran to find time (as they clearly should have done) to play the fine music of their greatest composer. I regard him as a worthier Portuguese national figure than Ronaldo of Manchester United  (for Chelsea)

The Anglo-Portugese alliance dates back to an agreement reached in 1373 confirmed in 1386 by the Treaty of Windsor and the marriage of King John I of Portugal with Philippa, daughter of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster and son of King Edward III of England. The Treaty of Windsor is still in force and makes the Anglo-Portugese alliance the oldest in the world.

However, at the time of the Spanish Armada Portugal was ruled by King Philip II of Spain who had succeeded to the Portugese throne in 1580 as heir of the last Portugese king. The crowns of Portugal and Spain were united between 1580 and 1640 and Portugese ships sailed with the Armada.

Here endeth the History lesson!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I regard him as a worthier Portuguese national figure than Ronaldo of Manchester United  (for Chelsea)

(Poor man, he has still not recovered.)

Here endeth the History lesson!!

Thanks!

[vandermolen]

The Anglo-Portugese alliance dates back to an agreement reached in 1373 confirmed in 1386 by the Treaty of Windsor and the marriage of King John I of Portugal with Philippa, daughter of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster and son of King Edward III of England. The Treaty of Windsor is still in force and makes the Anglo-Portugese alliance the oldest in the world.

However, at the time of the Spanish Armada Portugal was ruled by King Philip II of Spain who had succeeded to the Portugese throne in 1580 as heir of the last Portugese king. The crowns of Portugal and Spain were united between 1580 and 1640 and Portugese ships sailed with the Armada.

Here endeth the History lesson!!

Thanks Colin,

"not my period" as we history teachers are inclined to say (or I do anyway!) actually it was my period at university but I have forgotten it all 

[Christo]

Actually, there's an even earlier episode binding us all together, here.

In the early stages of the Second Crusade a contingent of Flemish, Frisian, Norman, English, and Scottish crusaders, who collectively considered themselves "Franks", sailing for the Holy Land, arrived at Porto, where the local bishop won them over for the siege of Lisbon. Accidentally, the bishop's generous offer of huge quantities of wine (Port?) appears to have been helpful in the proceedings 

So, the famous siege and conquest of Lisbon (1147) was conducted by folks from regions not unknown to many of us here. Most of the crusaders actually settled in Lisbon. No doubt they are all part of the ancestry of Joly Braga Santos, who was from an old Lisboan family. (Btw: According to one of his pupils I once spoke with, he took a lively interest in the Moorish folk traditions still discernable in both the old quarters of Lisbon and his beloved countryside of the Alentejo, too.)

I propose we claim him to be a great Portuguese composer of Anglo-Scottish-Dutch descent.   

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Accidentally, the bisshop's generous offer of huge quantities of wine (Port?) appears to have been helpful in the proceedings 

I propose we claim him to be a great Portuguese composer of Anglo-Scottish-Dutch descent.