Pawel Szymanski (b. 1954)

[Maciek]

 

[Maciek]

I think Szymanski's postmodernism has great depth (due, I suppose, to the complexity he introduces in his scores?). While it remains in many respects universal, it seems Szymanski's musical idiom is a highly personal affair, an emanation of his creative personality. (Though I guess those who find his music "artificial" and "contrived" would disagree.)

[Don't really see the point of the comparison, it seems needlessly harsh in retrospect, so have removed it from this post.]

[Symphonien]

Have been thinking about the difference between (early) Mykietyn and Szymanski and am still convinced that Mykietyn (up to a point) was simply "writing nice melodies" without much substance, while Szymanski's postmodernism has enormous depth. The funny thing is - I believe that what Mykietyn currently does has enormous depth as well, he finally has found his voice. But if he continued to blindly imitate Szymanski, it would have been his musical undoing - for him, it was clearly a blind alley (even if it lead to enormous popularity, because the music was "easy" and extremely alluring). So, while it remains in many respects universal, it seems Szymanski's musical language is a highly personal affair, a fascinating emanation of his creative personality. This may be difficult to believe/understand for those who find his music "artificial" and "contrived".

I am not familiar with Mykietyn (or of anyone that may have imitated Szymanski for that matter!) but I wouldn't say Szymanski's style is really that "easy" to begin with. Certain pieces perhaps may have an immediate surface appeal due to the familiarity of style/tonality etc, but to my ears there always seems to be a deeper level there as well. He has developed a very unique personal style whereby even the familiar elements are clearly apart of his own soundworld, and the fact that he has actually composed source material such as the Concerto Grosso and the harpsichord pieces speaks volumes. "Artifical" and "contrived" he most certainly is not! Who are these people that said such things?

[Symphonien]

All of which is not meant to imply that he is incapable of writing slow, calm pieces of interest.

chlorophaenhylohydroxipiperidinofluorobutyrophaenon is a prime example of such a piece: I don't think it ever goes beyond a p, or maybe even pp, but it is a fascinating, even exciting musical journey throughout.

I did give this one a listen recently. By some strange coincidence, a constant stream of cars seemed to keep driving past my window while I was listening.

Seriously though, do you have any background information on the choice of title or the piece itself? I enjoyed this piece a lot and found the sonorities to be quite fascinating, but I am not sure what this piece is supposed to mean. I can only guess (by the title and the cars) that it is supposed make some sort of environmental statement? Yet I actually found the sound of the cars driving past to be strangely soothing, and very interesting in the context of the music.

[Maciek]

I am not familiar with Mykietyn (or of anyone that may have imitated Szymanski for that matter!) but I wouldn't say Szymanski's style is really that "easy" to begin with.

Sorry if what I said came out muddled. I did not mean to say that Szymanski is "easy". I meant to say that the imitation of Szymanski that Mykietyn used to produce (he has now turned into a microtonal spectralist, so the situation has changed) was "easy" (he certainly was more "popular" than Szymanski, at least among people who don't normally listen to contemporary music).

and the fact that he has actually composed source material such as the Concerto Grosso and the harpsichord pieces speaks volumes. "Artifical" and "contrived" he most certainly is not! Who are these people that said such things?

Well, they are the sort of people who think that if notation is precise, or the composer is meticulous about details, then there isn't enough space for "emotion". Also, the argument here would be precisely that pre-composing something and then pulling it apart is "unnatural" etc.

[Maciek]

Seriously though, do you have any background information on the choice of title or the piece itself?

I have no idea. But considering Szymanski's general outlook on art, I don't think he would ever compose anything with a "program". I think the cars are simply used as abstract sounds, a sort of musique concrète. But I don't know, I've never read any program notes on the piece or anything. I don't even know what that title substance is, exactly. Perhaps knowing that would help?

[Symphonien]

Yesterday I listened to the 2 Studies for orchestra. And I was struck once again by how perfect the double set is as a whole, and by how little sense the second movement makes when it's left on its own. The first movement's presence is absolutely essential, to the point where it doesn't really make sense to call it a "movement" - it's an unbreakable, organic binding. Not only are they intertwined (which is always the case in Szymanski's bipartite pieces), but the second movement simply requires the buildup of tension that the first movement creates - it thrives on that tension, on those tempestuous bursts of energy. Without them, it falls flat. With them - a truly amazing effect is attained, the serene, ululating undulations attain a divine, metaphysical, transcendental quality. The same goes for Partita IV or the Piano Concerto. As much as I love the second "movements" of these pieces, I wouldn't want them on their own - it just wouldn't be the same.

If he absolutely had to release one of the movements separately, the first one would have worked much better. It has great "hit" potential, could easily compete with the likes of Short Ride in a Fast Machine or Lollapalooza (and I believe it's more than a bit more refined).

I finally found the time to listen to the 2 Studies and I couldn't agree with you more here. "A Study of Outline" and "A Study of Shade" - all makes perfect sense now. That first movement really acts as a springboard for the second, and since this follows attacca they're really too linked to be listened to separately. When I first listened to the 2nd study by itself it struck me mostly as a pale imitation of Ligeti, but now hearing it in the context of both movements I can recognise more of Szymanski's style and its role as a part of a bigger work.

Regarding your comments about the first movement, it is definitely likeable but I do think you are probably going way too far to suggest it could ever compete with John Adams for popularity!

[Symphonien]

Sorry if what I said came out muddled. I did not mean to say that Szymanski is "easy". I meant to say that the imitation of Szymanski that Mykietyn used to produce (he has now turned into a microtonal spectralist, so the situation has changed) was "easy" (he certainly was more "popular" than Szymanski, at least among people who don't normally listen to contemporary music).

Well, they are the sort of people who think that if notation is precise, or the composer is meticulous about details, then there isn't enough space for "emotion". Also, the argument here would be precisely that pre-composing something and then pulling it apart is "unnatural" etc.

Ah ok, well that clears things up a bit then. I probably didn't read your post properly in the first place... oh well, "unnatural" or not Szymanski is still an awesome composer!

I have no idea. But considering Szymanski's general outlook on art, I don't think he would ever compose anything with a "program". I think the cars are simply used as abstract sounds, a sort of musique concrète. But I don't know, I've never read any program notes on the piece or anything. I don't even know what that title substance is, exactly. Perhaps knowing that would help?

Well, I did try a Google search but it turned up nothing except Szymanski (only 12 results, one of which was your post in this forum). Even if it was a very obscure substance, I'm sure if it actually existed there would probably be a site somewhere that at least mentioned it once. I initially thought it had something to do with cars, which it probably doesn't. Other than that, I guessed he had just made up a long chemical name either to poke fun at humanity polluting the environment with stuff most people don't really understand and can't even pronounce, or simply for the sake of an interesting title. Considering what you've said about Szymanski, the latter is probably true. The "environmental" thing was just my initial impression when I put the title together with the cars driving past in the piece, and is probably wrong - but who really knows?

[Maciek]

Regarding your comments about the first movement, it is definitely likeable but I do think you are probably going way too far to suggest it could ever compete with John Adams for popularity!

You think so?

[Maciek]

Oops! Can't let the thread drop to 2nd page, can we? I mean, this is the most private place we two can get on this board...

Thoughts for today: it is almost terrifying to think of the task 20th and 21st century composers face of inventing their own idioms, almost from scratch. In view of that, it is fascinating to note that while Szymanski's idiom may at first seem to be some sort of compilation made up of earlier styles, it is in fact absolutely original. Because those earlier styles are taken completely out of context, treated like mere objects.

I have thought up a simile that, IMO, describes his composing method very well: it is as if someone chopped up a Gothic castle or Baroque palace into pieces, and used those pieces to build something completely new and modern. The pieces of the castle/palace can be seen in the walls of this new structure but they have been drained of their original sense: they now serve a different, contemporary sensitivity, they have been integrated into a new framework. You can easily recognize them: a piece of an archway there, the tip of a column here, but they do not make their old "sense" anymore. They are just building blocks serving a different purpose. But an important part of the aesthetic effect comes from this feeling of recognition.

In other words, Szymanski's music does not "pick up" where older music left off or anything of that sort. His stance seems a paradox: on the one hand, he completely disavows and deconstructs those glorious but outdated systems of aesthetic norms (in a sense), on the other, by using them as "objects", by "including" them in his music, he acknowledges them (in a sense).

Wow! And I thought I had come up with a great and simple way of explaining what his music is about (or at least how I understand it).

[Symphonien]

Oops! Can't let the thread drop to 2nd page, can we? I mean, this is the most private place we two can get on this board...

Thoughts for today: it is almost terrifying to think of the task 20th and 21st century composers face of inventing their own idioms, almost from scratch. In view of that, it is fascinating to note that while Szymanski's idiom may at first seem to be some sort of compilation made up of earlier styles, it is in fact absolutely original. Because those earlier styles are taken completely out of context, treated like mere objects.

I have thought up a simile that, IMO, describes his composing method very well: it is as if someone chopped up a Gothic castle or Baroque palace into pieces, and used those pieces to build something completely new and modern. The pieces of the cathedral/palace can be seen in the walls of this new structure but they have been drained of their original sense: they now serve a different, contemporary sensitivity, they have been integrated into a new framework. You can easily recognize them: a piece of an archway there, the butt of a column here, but they do not make their old "sense" anymore. They are just building blocks serving a different purpose. But an important part of the aesthetic effect comes from this feeling of recognition.

In other words, Szymanski's music does not "pick up" where older music left off or anything of that sort. His stance seems a paradox: on the one hand, he completely disavows and deconstructs those glorious but outdated systems of aesthetic norms (in a sense), on the other, by using them as "objects", by "including" them in his music, he acknowledges them (in a sense).

Wow! And I thought I had come up with a great and simple way of explaining what his music is about (or at least how I understand it).

No need to doubt yourself in that last sentence - I think it's a wonderful comparison! Couldn't have said it better myself.

As for the previous paragraph, it is a paradox indeed and Szymanski has said so himself: blather and banality, as he puts it. Although his solution (decontextualisation of past musical elements) to avoid this dilemma seems obvious, I do not know of many other composers that have applied this method in such an effective, coherent and personal way as Szymanski has. The only other composer I can think of that has achieved similar things in music is Alfred Schnittke. I don't believe that the full potential of this particular approach of "polystylism" has really been explored enough, and that is probably why I appreciate both of these composers so much for making such valuable contributions. It definitely seems to be a very difficult thing to successfully pull off in music. Take Schnittke's 1st Symphony for example: while it is a fun piece, the polystylism comes across to me as a rather incoherent collage of ideas. It took him a while to master this new style, but when he did, he produced some real masterpieces. That's not to say that I think Szymanski is trying to do the same thing as Schnittke, but rather that these are two composers that I think have managed to create uniquely personal styles through their own decontextualisation of familiar elements.

That being said, I haven't listened to any new Szymanski music yet since my last posting on chloro...phaenon , but this thread of course is always an inspiration.

[Maciek]

Anything new? I'm in the mood for some of his string quartet pieces.

Incidentally, I notice that Polish Radio Katowice has issued a new recording of the Two Pieces, played by the Akademos Quartet. Don't really know who they are but found on the internet that they gave two concerts at Carnegie Hall in 2007 (playing Beethoven quartets - which they've also recorded for Acte Préalable). So I guess I need to get this CD (despite the off-putting cover).

[Maciek]

Apparently managed to miss the composer's birthday on the 28th!

The PolMIC site featured two older photos in their "photo of the day" section:

1985

1988

[Symphonien]

Thanks for those. Very good.

I also like the picture on his wikipedia page, where he appears to be smoking a pipe:



I notice a distinct similarity to Gandalf:



(who also smokes a pipe)

[Symphonien]

Recently I've been rather obsessed with the Drei Lieder nach Trakl (chamber orchestra version) so I thought I may as well bump up the good old thread again . I love the delicate, sometimes sparse sonorities of the first - almost Webernian in nature yet with that eerily familiar recurring melody, the second which kind of plays around with a series of diatonic thirds stacked on top of each other and the utterly gorgeous, spellbinding third. I swear, the first thirty seconds or so of that third song has got to be one of the most beautiful openings I know in all of music (of course the entire piece is beautiful all the way through too!).

An appropriate choice of ensemble with the piano, harp, strings and tuned percussion but also an accordion? Who would have thought? Surprisingly, Szymanski somehow manages to make the accordion fit in perfectly, genius that he is! Now that I think of it, I don't really know any other works which have an accordion in them...

I also know nothing about Georg Trakl. You wouldn't happen to know what poems the songs come from and what they are about, would you? I would be interested to find an English translation just to know Szymanski's inspiration behind his songs.

---

Oh and by the way, I was browsing the topic on the old forum and I managed to find the sheet music for his Gigue for solo cello. You also uploaded a couple of performances of it, but being more than 2 years ago the rapidshare links have of course expired now! Do you still have any of these (recorded at that 2007 cello competition I believe) that you would be able to upload again?

[Maciek]

Recently I've been rather obsessed with the Drei Lieder nach Trakl (chamber orchestra version) so I thought I may as well bump up the good old thread again . I love the delicate, sometimes sparse sonorities of the first - almost Webernian in nature yet with that eerily familiar recurring melody, the second which kind of plays around with a series of diatonic thirds stacked on top of each other and the utterly gorgeous, spellbinding third. I swear, the first thirty seconds or so of that third song has got to be one of the most beautiful openings I know in all of music (of course the entire piece is beautiful all the way through too!).

An appropriate choice of ensemble with the piano, harp, strings and tuned percussion but also an accordion? Who would have thought? Surprisingly, Szymanski somehow manages to make the accordion fit in perfectly, genius that he is! Now that I think of it, I don't really know any other works which have an accordion in them...

I also know nothing about Georg Trakl. You wouldn't happen to know what poems the songs come from and what they are about, would you? I would be interested to find an English translation just to know Szymanski's inspiration behind his songs.

---

Oh and by the way, I was browsing the topic on the old forum and I managed to find the sheet music for his Gigue for solo cello. You also uploaded a couple of performances of it, but being more than 2 years ago the rapidshare links have of course expired now! Do you still have any of these (recorded at that 2007 cello competition I believe) that you would be able to upload again?

Ah, what a pleasant surprise to see both you around and the thread bumped to the top of the section (where it belongs and should perpetually stay ).

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the Trakl songs so much! They seem to be rather popular with singers over here - I think I've heard at least three different performances on the radio. Though I've also heard at least one singer complain that Szymanski's vocal writing is very difficult for the performers...

Trakl was an Austrian turn-of-the-century poet. He's actually fairly popular here (in a slightly snobbish way). Perhaps because he was vaguely connected with Poland (mainly due to the fact that during Trakl's life a large part of Poland was an Austrian "colony", so to speak). I don't really know more about him than what you can read in this Wikipedia article. The Wittgenstein connections are interesting.

I'll try to find those Gigue recordings BUT: 1) bear in mind that (IIRC) the sound quality is absolutely abominable!, 2) it will take a while, since I don't think I have them on my computer any longer (I'll need to locate the disc, and my labelling scheme is neither verbose nor precise ).

[Maciek]

Incidentally, I wonder how much time it will take before this fad really catches on. I mean, we're up to page 3 and except for us two, barely anyone ever says anything!

(Maybe it's because we're so smart - it may intimidate some people. Heck, I know it's intimidating me! I read some of the stuff I've written here and I say to myself: 'Oh my gosh! I am so smart, I really can't continue posting in this thread, sooner or later I'll say something stupid and then I'll have to laugh at myself because I'm so very smart and very smart people always laugh at stupid people. So I'd better just shut up and leave this thread alone.')

Anyway, what was I going to say. Oh, I know. I did a cursory search and found two more Trakl song cycles: Three songs for voice and string trio by the Teresin composer Viktor Ullmann and a single Trakl setting for contralto, harp and horn by Dorota Dywańska. He seems to inspire unorthodox instrumentation.

[I apologize humbly for calling Szymanski fandom a fad!]

[[I admit that I am very, very tired and should probably go to sleep.]]

[[[Good night.]]]

[Symphonien]

Thank you very, very much for those texts + translations. I can definitely see how the songs fit now!

Oh and thank you for your efforts in finding the Gigue recording too. Believe it or not, I actually did manage to find the score on that website. They still have it uploaded there thankfully!

[Maciek]

Oh and thank you for your efforts in finding the Gigue recording too. Believe it or not, I actually did manage to find the score on that website. They still have it uploaded there thankfully!

You're right! I tried their site yesterday but didn't realize I had to roll over the text at the very top of the page for the menu to appear. Thanks for digging up that page. There seems to be a recording of the Gigue available there too (the little speaker to the left of the title of the piece) but there's no information on who plays it...

I hope Guido is reading this thread. There are scores of two other solo cello pieces available there as well! And I see a recording of the Szalonek Sonata - he's a composer I like very much.

Oh, and a Knapik piece - another favorite composer!

And Penderecki's Divertimento!

Thanks again!

[Symphonien]

There seems to be a recording of the Gigue available there too (the little speaker to the left of the title of the piece) but there's no information on who plays it...

I can't believe I missed that! Oh well thank you for pointing it out. You needn't bother wasting your time digging up those old recordings if you don't want. All I really wanted was any recording to listen to while following the score which I plan to do shortly.